dog pack issue, long

[akane]

Mainly shiba issues. I got my akita, Azami, when I moved out of my mom's house and she was around 2 years old when my husband moved in and got a shiba puppy, Haru. Azami disciplined Haru much like she did the cats but grudgingly accepted Haru was given more freedom for things than cats. Azami had an issue with cats early on that she has gotten over. Everything was under Azami (including Josh for the longest time which was occasionally amusing) and she took her cues from me. Azami checked the animals for odd behavior to alert me to and had to sniff all newborns when they were found. Haru being a shiba just couldn't integrate with the animals like Azami. She got ordered to leave the room a lot when smaller animals got loose or were being handled, tied up when dealing with the chickens, and disciplined over the cats who handled her pretty well. My older cat just laid into her all claws out so Haru barked at her but didn't get within 2' of her otherwise and the other was a durable young cat raised by my Akita to think she was a faster, sleeker version of a dog. :lol: We moved to the condo, my older cat moved in with the neighbor and soon the younger cat was pts for immune system disorders, and everything was caged safely away from dogs for a few years.

We got the house and then we got the husky. I thought Haru was submissive this whole time to the rest of the pack which only consisted of Azami as the other dog. Unexpected things happened with Niji and Haru's interaction though. I didn't entirely understand it. Haru acted like she wanted to take things from Niji but didn't and not because of Niji. Azami didn't really take things from Niji either but that's because Azami doesn't care and knows humans will dish out the treats and food evenly for everyone. She doesn't need to argue with a puppy anymore when we will tell the puppy which food is hers and which food is shared or you don't get any at all. Niji seemed to integrate into the pack just fine and has rapidly learned manners including sharing with humans, Azami, and even other animals. Niji has shared in the handling of rabbits, chinchillas, and guinea pigs. She laid in the middle of the bed while a chinchilla jumped around and on her a couple days ago. She is kind of a bouncier but less intense version of Azami. Haru's place became a bit confusing. If I wanted to I could probably throw a pile of butchered rabbit and guinea pigs in the middle of the kitchen and release Niji, Azami, and the kittens to free for all with no problems coming up. Haru would try to kill everything except Azami starting with the smallest kitten.

The addition of the kittens pushed Haru over the edge. At first it was fine until the kittens started playing and wandering and eating raw food behind barriers in the kitchen. Niji bounces after Misaki but she has no intention of doing injury and protects Miyu. This started the first problem. Haru threatened Miyu and just like Azami has done in the past Niji turned on her for it. Problem is large female akitas demand a lot more respect and Azami has a lot better knowledge of how to deal with things than less than 1year old huskies do. We broke them up with minimal contact happening but lots of intent. Then they fought over an empty cat food bowl with some seriousness but again broken up before they could do much.

Since then Haru has just been pushing and pushing things. The play is more violent to the point Niji hides under the bed and I have told Azami to break it off several times before it reached the point she would have to turn it into discipline. Haru's reactions to Niji are more violent, she's going nuts about the cats, and she has snapped at them a couple times while they are playing near the edge of the bed. I realized Haru is not submissive in the pack. Haru has no place in the pack. She is outside the pack structure. She didn't end up below Niji like I thought was happening in an odd way. She is equal to everything in her mind except me and Azami. It is us that are making her pause before starting something with Niji. I think it's partially my fault. I didn't make her part of everything and give her a place. Haru is not part of the interaction with animals or the chores. She has her own rope to do her own thing when hiking while the other 2 are harnessed together on a sled dog line. She lays in rooms alone instead of with us and lately sometimes chooses to sleep in her crate instead of with everyone in the bedroom. With no place to belong and probably over 6 years old now she is frantic over the new additions. Azami and Niji are perfectly mellow (as mellow as a young husky gets) over it all because they are an easy to understand part of everything and the cats are just another animal to learn how to interact with correctly.

I am afraid this will lead to having to rehome Haru. Personally if Josh wasn't around I wouldn't have kept Haru and deemed her unsuitable to my lifestyle. I am not rehoming everything else for her and we both have desires for another husky puppy. I am planning an intact akc registered male for showing. Giving up Haru would cause a huge rift with my husband though. Are there any ideas on getting Haru to fit in a little rather than both retreating from us and becoming violent toward everything? Otherwise it's just going to be damage control until she's bad enough my husband agrees to rehome her. Casualties a major risk in that scenario.

 

[Dood]

Have you tried tethering the Shiba to you ?

If she respects you as the alpha her stress level should drop as you will be there to take care of things so she doesn't have to. You'll also be re-teaching her the house rules with just your body language and she'll need to respond to that instead of just your verbal commands

Remember to not let your only communication with the Shiba be negative and praise her for being good but also for not being bad like when she is just relaxing quietly praise her or when she isn't reactive in a situation that would normally set her off.

Teaching her to walk away from problems instead of escalating them and go to a "safe spot" (crate/room/ spot on the couch etc...) where NO ONE is allowed to pester her so she can decompress can help but don't let her spend too much time there

Once the kittens mature (or are gone) the issues may stop - Kittens (and most youthful critters ) grate on my nerves as well :cheesysmile: Haru is likely sending out signals but the young animals are not picking them up so she sends out a stronger signal in the form of a bite

 

[Celice]

Involve her with whatever you are doing. That's part of the problem; for a pack to bond they need activities together walking, training..ect. when you do your choirs take all the dogs but be on top of any bad behavior. right now she's insecure in her place in the pack, new animals and dogs are strange to her.

high energy dogs can be more prone to getting violent so make sure to keep on top of play and body language. If you can catch it before it starts it's better.

 

[akane]

The problem is I have a rabbit and guinea pig colony with a few cages and several loose animals and then open top guinea pig cages outside the pen. So if I take the shiba downstairs with me I either leave her outside the pen where she can kill guinea pigs or take her in the pen where she can kill guinea pigs or rabbits. A leash is not going to be enough to stop her fast enough on it's own. Chickens have been lost before because they wandered within range of her rope. She knows exactly how far she can throw her body to snap her teeth and all she needs is enough slack for a foot of lunging and she'll have something dead or mortally wounded before you realize it got that close. Chickens would die before you finished the "n" sound of "no". This is why she has not been involved. If I take her downstairs around the animals she will just have to be tied outside the colony pen which doesn't do much more to include her. Even as a puppy she was a problem. Whereas Niji played openly with chinchillas for a week while she was tiny and then as she got more mobile and bigger was taught the amount of force that can be applied to each animal. She gets overly excited being so young but she can be introduced to a new animal and new rules applied before she attempts serious harm. You can't do that with Haru. See animal, kill animal. She almost got one of the guinea pigs when I brought the first trio home. Luckily it was a longer furred one and she snapped it's butt fur without getting skin and lost it into some feed bags while I tackled her. I wish I had some champagnes. They are huge and laid back so Haru could be introduced with less risk than fast moving, bite size guinea pigs and dwarf rabbits. We always joked we were going to get a flemish that would weigh nearly the same as Haru just so she would stop thinking she can kill rabbit smelling things. The only thing I can think of is getting another rubber basket muzzle to train her with but I'm in the negatives for money right now.

 

[Celice]

a muzzle is a good training tool. I'd start with that and maybe a remote shock collar. try it out and see if she snaps out of her hunting instincts and then she may know that rabbits and little things need to be left alone.

 

[HowlsOfAngels]

It sounds like she has a high prey drive and isn't being allowed to burn enough energy off lead, as well as having a lot of negative interaction with Niji and small animals (I'm including kittens in the small animal category). The addition of more small animals that reduce her territory is probably a contributing factor to her stress, but Niji also sounds like she/he has created a sizable rift in the pack. I think Haru has hit a rough and frustrating patch in her life and once the kittens are gone it'll reduce her stress, but she may need some more training to help her associate the other animals with positive things.

I've been personally dealing with a tense pack the last two weeks, so I can relate to your frustration in this matter. My pack consists of mostly Pyr mixes and maybe some of the techniques I've been using to resolve my own strife could be modified and applied to your problems as well (Pyrs are also aloof and independent). Three of my Pyr cross girls got into a pretty serious fight recently resulting in some minor puncture wounds to two of the participants as I was only able to remove one from the fight and then go back for the second aggressor (it lasted less than a minute, but I consider it their worst squabble). The wounds are so minor that I had to shave over them in order to observe them as they could not be seen, only felt.

The two that were allowed to continue fighting for a few moments longer became tense and easily set off by the other as each dog's place in the back had been thoroughly threatened and the original trigger had been the loss of personal space. And I'm sure that the fight established a large negative association between them.

In order to repair the relationship of each dog I've been working a lot on one particular behavior, I cue both dogs to give all of their attention (primarily eye contact) to me and offer immediate praise and a reward when they do so without displaying any aggression toward one another (treats, pats, and verbal praise all work depending upon the dog). Any malice is promptly, but not harshly, corrected so as to avoid escalating the situation (I use a low, disapproving tone and "uh uh" to correct in these situations, but you probably have your own system set up). If one or both dogs display excessive discomfort, anxiety, or aggression then I separate them and try again once each has calmed down, sometimes they calm down immediately as I move one away from the other and we are able to continue the session almost immediately. Initially, though, it took approximately ten minutes for them to calm down enough to try again.

I have also been trying to include both dogs in group activities, slowly pushing each dog until they become more comfortable with each other in close proximity. I started by calling all of my pack together in a large space (inside as the fight occurred outside and they weren't ready for that yet) and having each of them choose a spot to sit, then I called one dog forward, the dog that was defending her personal space in the aforementioned fight. She was encouraged to move nearer to the dog causing her the most discomfort and praised when she did so, I did not force her to move any closer than she felt necessary. While I called her forward I also maintained eye contact with the aforementioned aggressor and insisted she not display so much as a stiff shoulder toward the other dog. Slowly, the dogs were able to get closer and closer without displaying aggression. A positive association was beginning to form.

An example of a situation that triggers the defensive dog is as such: She will be laying next to me and one of the aggressors will approach with tails high in an attempt to push the defensive dog off the couch with body language alone. If the defensive dog growls, I move and the aggressor follows me with a physical cue (I snap my fingers), and the aggressor is not encouraged with any other attention whatsoever. That is usually enough to discourage both dogs from continuing. They now resolve this issue wordlessly and take turns sitting next to me without any stiff body language. A modified greeting is used by the aggressors to ask the defensive dog to move and she usually obliges them. When she doesn't move they respect her wishes and flop down right in front of her on the floor, I established this by requiring they lay down elsewhere rather than hovering and have allowed them to move closer to her over time.

It may be possible to work with your Shiba on her self control and attitude by teaching her to focus on you when she is feeling threatened by the other dog or the kittens (or if she wants to go after the kittens). The more her experiences around the other animals can be positive rather than negative the better. A muzzle would help, but from what you've described I don't think she is ready to be close enough to the little ones to need one. Working with a physical barrier would probably be in the best interest of the little critters (as you already know, seeing as I believe you mentioned having several already in place).

Maybe start alone with her completely separate to establish the cue, then slowly introduce distractions until she can maintain a sit, stay, and eye contact comfortably with one kitten nearby, then two. After that try introducing Niji without the kittens as they could trigger a fight even though she will have been taught to ignore them without Niji, with Niji adds stimuli and becomes a whole new situation. Try to avoid situations you know will add stress or frustration and allow her to continue to remove herself from the situation by finding quite comfy places like she has been. Slowly, as she has more positive experiences than negative around the other animals, she may come out and want to spend time with them.

I can't guarantee any of this, the above is based on my own personal experience and some positive reinforcement concepts I've picked up over the years. But I do hope that my rambling has given you some ideas on how to begin remedying your situation. Good luck with your critters, hopefully Haru can be helped and your pack will settle in the coming weeks as mine has.

 

[akane]

You cannot let shibas off leash in an area that is not enclosed and the yard does not have enough stimulation to make her want to expend energy. Only the husky will play ball and the others just end up sunbathing. I plan to build an agility course and we try to go hiking frequently. The dog park is shut down due to illness spreading through the local area. That really restricts exercise for a spitz breed. They have all attended obedience classes and agility classes around other dogs but those are expensive and I currently have no real income. Haru has major issue with stay despite all attempts and classes. She will sit, she will wait while you are right there, but if you move she either leaves or comes with depending on reward level. She is incredibly intent on whatever she determines is the highest reward in the area (toys and running laps around the building are fairly even, greeting exciting looking people, food, animals to attack in increasing order) and will not separate from it. In order to get a somewhat stay in dog classes I had to put the treats behind my back and back away from her so she got a bit uncertain where the food was to follow.

She sees critters behind barriers all the time. There are very solid chinchilla cages on the main level of the house that she ignores. She will ignore rabbits in their cages even if they aren't the sturdiest cages. She's learned when something is reachable and when something is not reachable and her attitude changes immediately. There's not really in between levels with her. Leash doesn't reach that so standing or sitting there calmly. Leash still doesn't reach... then bam the leash slack is within range of the critter. I think part of this comes from when I put a snoot loop (like a halti) on her and took her in the chicken coop to try to reduce her chicken intensity. Every time she went toward a chicken without permission her head got turned and the removed slack on a snoot loop forces the mouth closed. She pitched an insane fit. If you've seen large livestock tied who get upset that's about what it was. Hauling backward and pitching her body around. I just stood there as a post and after knocking the food and water all around she quietly sat down next to me. This is misleading. It's like the warning people give about punishing a dog for growling before any behavior. Instead of removing the threat you might just remove the growl and all signals while the dog is still gearing up to start a fight. It did not reduce attacks on chickens. It just made her pay attention to when chickens were not reachable.

Haru is humping Niji when the dogs attempt to play. Niji is blowing it off and continuing to aim her play at Azami. I'm not sure if this is out of cluelessness toward the intent of the behavior or just being secure enough in her position that it is not a dominance threat to her. Haru has found a chunk of chair cushion to make a bed out of in the bedroom which no one else wants.

 

[HowlsOfAngels]

Instead of removing the threat you might just remove the growl and all signals while the dog is still gearing up to start a fight..

That was a possibility, but thus far things are returning to normal. The defensive dog is attempting to repair the relationship by offering more submissive behavior, as well as play behavior and they are now sleeping side by side as well as spending more time hunting for whatever small animals they find in the yard (birds, mice, frogs, it's a bit of a jungle right now). Still a bit of pushing, bullying from the more confident dog, but that is firmly discouraged. I tried to prevent the complete removal of the growl by correcting her, removing the threat, and then removing myself from her presence. Then I and the threat would return, my presence being her incentive to quit bein' a growly brat. It's a work in progress, so far things are going well with no major set backs. The only set back occurred in a poorly lit room, the defensive dog decided to jubilantly invite her pushy half sister to play and was given a grumpy 'no'. A quick correction and cue to go their separate ways prevented things from escalating and the defensive dog has been offering to play in a much more subdued manner.

How are your beasts getting along? Have you come up with a plan of action?

 

[akane]

Haru has a defined place in the bedroom now and she has accepted kittens do not want to eat her food and are not prey. Also for some reason it greatly helped that Azami disciplined Niji over a food situation. Niji has been allowed to get away with murder by Azami who was a strict dictator when Haru was a puppy. Niji's punishment while the dogs were all eating food seems to have settled things a little. There's still lots of whining and growling about kittens and food between Haru and Niji but the play isn't getting pushed toward aggression with Azami. However, now that Niji has quit hiding under the bed and joined in play again Haru has started humping her to the point Niji eventually has to turn all attention to getting away. Niji is unimpressed by this display as far as dominance is concerned but she is getting really irritated just about the action and it keeping her from playing.