Does this count as broken?

[Spicerack Rabbitry]

This is Nutmeg, a purebred NZ red doe. Her dad was a broken red and mom was solid red. I got her because the breeder couldn't show her with her little white spot. Do you think she has the chance to pass on an En to her kits? I'm not breeding for show so it's just for my own curiosity about how the genetics work that I'm curious.

 

[Alaska Satin]

This is Nutmeg, a purebred NZ red doe. Her dad was a broken red and mom was solid red. I got her because the breeder couldn't show her with her little white spot. Do you think she has the chance to pass on an En to her kits? I'm not breeding for show so it's just for my own curiosity about how the genetics work that I'm curious. View attachment 42203

I have never seen or heard of a broken that did not have white feet. I am not saying it couldn't happen, just that it's pretty rare.

Breed her to a solid and see (and let us know)!

I'd lean more toward damage. Colored rabbits that get injured often re-grow white hair over the scar, and sometimes rabbits that are white or white-marked (himis, mostly, but sometimes Dutch too) will grow colored hair in a white area that has been injured.

 

[Scooter1A]

I like the look of the red NZ. Nice rabbit.

 

[ladysown]

she most likely has vienna in her somewhere. I would not count that as broken but more as a suspected Vienna carrier.

 

[MsTemeraire]

The Broken pattern can sometimes mask other white spotting patterns such as Vienna. It looks as though the sire of this one didn't pass on his Broken gene, but handed over a different white pattern he had there hiding under his broken pattern. It may be Vienna, it may not be, it's very hard to prove either way.

 

[Alaska Satin]

It may be vienna, or it may be the dreaded "stray white hairs/white spot in colored area" which can occur without either broken or vienna genes (due some other genetic detail, or to injury). It would be surprising to have anyone add anything with vienna to purebred NZs, but as @MsTemeraire points out, broken color rabbits can hide that stuff. It's also unusual for a show breeder to mix broken and vienna, since vienna tends to reduce or eliminate the nose marking, which is required in brokens of all breeds in the U.S. (Except, maybe, Blanc de Hotot or Dwarf Hotot breeders, though hotots are usually made from broken+dutch genes).

The way to tell if she's a vienna-marked (VM) red is to breed her with a rabbit you know has the vienna allele, ideally a blue-eyed white, but another VM rabbit can be also helpful. This may be one of her own offspring, if any of them show a similar mark. If she and the offspring are both VM or VC, chances are pretty good that you'll get one or more BEW kits. If you breed her to a BEW and she's a VM, you'll almost certainly get some BEWs.

Another clue to vienna hiding in the broken sire is if he is missing some or all of his nose marking. But it's only a clue, for two reasons. First is that vienna marks are unpredictable, even though certain lines tend to make certain marks - we had one buck that made dutch-marked VM babies, and another that made VM babies with just a snip or star on their foreheads or noses, so it varies with the line and the mate. The second reason is that brokens can lack part or all of a nose marking, without it being due to a vienna allele.

She is really pretty, by the way!

 

[Spicerack Rabbitry]

I didn't even know about vienna, that's fascinating! Both my bucks are solid, one red and one black. I'm trying her with the red so if there are any oddballs in the litter it will tell us a lot. My red buck Cumin has entirely solid reds on his pedigree so I'm not expecting surprises from him. If I had a BEW I would be really interested to see what she'd produce, perhaps I'll keep an eye out for one in the future.

Thanks for the compliments by the way! She's very sweet and always demands nose scratches (as long as I don't have to pick her up lol).

 

[judymac]

Cumin has entirely solid reds on his pedigree so I'm not expecting surprises from him.

You'd be surprised what recessives can pop up when you cross outside of a rabbit's normal lines. Like generations of black x black breeding that suddenly throws white or chinchilla or tort when crossed out to a new line. You can't tell a full color black from a chinchilla self black by looking at it (unless it inherited the odd chin blue or marbled eyes as well). You can breed two self colors together for many generations, and never know that black was actually a self chin.

I ended up with a white kit and a blue (or maybe even lilac) this year when I crossed a wild gray chestnut to a new black buck. He obviously carries white, though it doesn't show up in the pedigree. The surprise was from my agouti doe, whose line I have never bred to a white. Yet there it is. Someone somewhere came with a recessive albino gene, and has passed it along undetected for decades. I haven't bred for dilute in at least thirty years, only choosing dense color rabbits for all these generations, and suddenly out pops a dilute. Some bunny somewhere along the line has been hiding the dilute genetics for generations, but apparently had no dilute mate for it to express itself until I bred to the new buck, which does have dilute in its distant pedigree. I don't normally cross agouti into the black line, but the doe had exceptional fiber and good color to the skin, which the black buck did not--I was hoping to improve the black fiber in the line I normally only breed black x black.

So, I'm back to the drawing board. My line obviously has a variety of hidden recessives, and I'm going to have to figure out how to weed some of those out, as I'm trying for a black line that is non-agouti, black, full color, dense color, full extension (aa BB CC DD EE) . Since this litter has two torts (one dense and one dilute), an albino white and a blue or lilac (I haven't had a dilute in ages, not sure which one this one will be), the agouti doe must be Aa B_ Cc Dd Ee, and the black buck must be aa B_ _c Dd Ee. I would have never guessed. It's amazing what can hide for generations.

There are several blacks in the litter, which means they did inherit the non-agouti aa, but who knows what else they inherited, I don't think I want to use them in the black line after all.

 

[eco2pia]

It's funny @judymac, your logic makes prefect sense, and yet I love that my EA should give me a range of colors. It is part of the charm for me to have nest box surprise. I have been enjoying the potential to produce every self color possible with as few breeders as possible.

I am really curious whether EE and DD actually make blacks blacker? It makes sense, I just did not consider that that would be a perceptible change--otherwise we should be able to identify the d and e carriers by sight. But we can't?

 

[Alaska Satin]

It's funny @judymac, your logic makes prefect sense, and yet I love that my EA should give me a range of colors. It is part of the charm for me to have nest box surprise. I have been enjoying the potential to produce every self color possible with as few breeders as possible.

I am really curious whether EE and DD actually make blacks blacker? It makes sense, I just did not consider that that would be a perceptible change--otherwise we should be able to identify the d and e carriers by sight. But we can't?

Maybe @judymac wants EE and DD so she doesn't keep getting dilutes and torts popping up among her blacks... But I'd be interested to learn if homozygous D and E make better black, too.

There's an interesting idea I'm trying to ferret out about steel E(S). Several old breeders have told me they like steel in their self blacks because it makes the undercolor darker. I discovered a few years ago that I have steel in my Satins, which lurked for two years without showing itself because my Satins were all selfs since the mid-2000's. I didn't work too hard to eliminate it because it wasn't a problem until I started breeding otters. But now that I'm paying attention, I think there might be something to the undercolor idea.

Self black steel carrier (<E(S)E> not a supersteel), then self black with no steel <EE>:

 

[Spicerack Rabbitry]

You might have something with that! The steel carrier does look darker as far as I can tell.

 

[judymac]

But I'd be interested to learn if homozygous D and E make better black, too.

Agreed, I'd love to know. My mentor was careful to breed for homozygous, and her colors were amazing. The blacks were black to the skin, the blues were darker than most blacks when spun, just lovely. The fawns a rich deep gold like I've never seen since I fell in love with the very pale pastel dilutes and ruined my genetics. My current stock all gets pale closer to the skin, and I want to reverse that. I can't prove that the homozygous breeding had anything to do with that, I only know the breeders fifty years ago seemed very sold on the idea--they were very fussy about what colors to breed together for best color.

@Alaska Satin, the color depth on the steel carriers is fascinating.

 

[timelesstailsrabbitry]

Agreed, I'd love to know. My mentor was careful to breed for homozygous, and her colors were amazing. The blacks were black to the skin, the blues were darker than most blacks when spun, just lovely. The fawns a rich deep gold like I've never seen since I fell in love with the very pale pastel dilutes and ruined my genetics. My current stock all gets pale closer to the skin, and I want to reverse that. I can't prove that the homozygous breeding had anything to do with that, I only know the breeders fifty years ago seemed very sold on the idea--they were very fussy about what colors to breed together for best color.

@Alaska Satin, the color depth on the steel carriers is fascinating.

yeah when I first got into breeding satins, a couple of my mentors were pretty strict on breeding certain varieties strictly to the same for homozygousity (if that's a word) or only crossing certain varieties with other varieties. Personally I like surprise recessives. You might have to breed back to your doe and work out the paleness for the more rich pastel to the skin. A friend of mine used to breed all her rabbits to a small herd of rabbits she'd specifically bred to be completely recessive (lilac tort in REW) and would breed them to all her new rabbits the first time to see what recessives popped up. I wish they had color testing for rabbits like they do with dogs and horses... would make life a little easier sometimes lol