Does anyone know what an aaB-chm-D-E- kit would look like?

[Becky]

Appealing mostly to satin breeders here, as chm is a gene which as far as I know only happens in Siamese Satins. I've been doing some genetics research, and I've determined that unless one of my black does has a surprise recessive gene, (breeding them to my Siamese buck) I should get a 50/50 mix of aaB-Cchm-D-E- (which I know is black self) and aaB-chm-D-E-, which I haven't found anything on. It definitely wouldn't be a recognized color, but I'm thinking it would be like a full extension Siamese, so chocolate looking all over, but not carrying the chocolate gene? Any thoughts?

 

[Dood]

If "chm" manifests as a medium version of chinchilla then perhaps you would get more of a seal colour but I would think it would look like a self chinchilla which looks like a self black, often with bluish eyes :shrug:

Did you test bred your black doe to determine if she carries a recessive on the C-locus ("C_") and is not homozygous for full colour ("CC") ? Or if she is a self chin (aa cchd_ )

It was my understanding that "Siamese Satin" is called sallander in other breeds and is aa B_ cchd_ D_ ee (or "aa B_ cchm_ D_ ee")

 

[Becky]

My black doe's dam was Californian, so 99% certainty that she's carrying ch. It's her first litter so haven't done any test breeding.

 

[Dood]

Ok, barring any other recessives the kits should be

50% aa B_ C cchm D_ Ee which are self black

50% aa B_ cchm ch D_ Ee which are self chin and look black or possibly more seal looking

What colour was the does sire? (in case she might be self chin)

Any himilayans or REW in the bucks pedigree?

 

[akane]

aa B cchm D E is a seal looking rabbit probably with no red tint to the eyes unlike the tint chl causes. In rex fur they may be more chocolate looking when really young. I'm not sure about standard. I have only seen a father/daughter pair of rex and some type of wool furred rabbit that supposedly were cchm.

 

[Becky]

The doe's pedigree on her sire's side is mostly black selfs (including her sire), plus a blue and a broken black. No Californians or REW in my buck's pedigree.
Thanks so much for replying, everybody! <br /><br /> __________ Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:19 pm __________ <br /><br />

aa B cchm D E is a seal looking rabbit probably with no red tint to the eyes unlike the tint chl causes. In rex fur they may be more chocolate looking when really young. I'm not sure about standard. I have only seen a father/daughter pair of rex and some type of wool furred rabbit that supposedly were cchm.

I was googling looking at pictures of seal rabbits, which raised the question: Visually, what is the difference between seal and chocolate rabbits?

 

[Dood]

Chocolates are rarely so dark and lack the shading / darker points seen in seals.

Seals with the light shaded gene (cchl) go through a "shimmery" stage as kit, not as obvious as seen in siamese sables, and I don't know if it would be as evident in a satin coated kit :shrug:

 

[akane]

Seal tends to be an off black rather than a typical chocolate look. Often you can't tell the difference at first until you set them next to a true black and learn to pick out the slight brown tinge. Some are a little more chocolate looking than others but are still too dark and would show off the shading more. It's usually obvious they aren't actual chocolates.

 

[Becky]

Okay, thanks guys! <br /><br /> __________ Sat Apr 11, 2015 4:27 pm __________ <br /><br /> So, the kits are about 3 weeks old now, and the only difference I can see between them is that some of them have grey eyes and others have brown eyes. Which is which? (seal or black, I mean)

 

[skysthelimit]

Seal should have brown eyes with a ruby cast, black should have brown eyes with a ruby cast. Seal at birth, would look gray.

With a gray eye I'd be tempted to say self chin, though all of my self chins have had brown or marbled blue eyes. most of my Chin herd has gray eyes. The very last Chin litter this year, I had a kit that I would swear was a Seal (I raise true Seal and Sable Rex and JW). Side by side it had all the tell tale features of the Seal, other than the fact that I know my chin herd does not carry shaded, because they carry white.

 

[Becky]

Okay, thanks! Yeah, I know they're actually self chin, but I was told they would look like Seal, so that's what I asked about.

 

[skysthelimit]

Okay, thanks! Yeah, I know they're actually self chin, but I was told they would look like Seal, so that's what I asked about.

That's where I was going with that long story, lol. Gray eye is definitely not Seal coloring
I used to hear that too, until I started raising Seal. They look nothing like each other.

My self chins don't normally look like Seals. They look like blacks. There is a big difference between a Seal and a Self Chin side by side. Self Chins are sometimes shown as Seals, but many people, including judges, haven't seen a Seal before, so a faded black could look like a Seal if you have not seen the difference.
Except for that one I just had, but it was a new buck, so their are things yet to be determined.

 

[Becky]

My self chins don't normally look like Seals. They look like blacks.

Do you think I could show my self chin kits as black, then? Not in an actual show, just in 4H.

 

[skysthelimit]

My self chins don't normally look like Seals. They look like blacks.

Do you think I could show my self chin kits as black, then? Not in an actual show, just in 4H.

For showmanship? Many of the 4H clubs I know here use ARBA rules and judges at the fair.

As long as the eyes are brown, and there is no fading, it will pass as a black.

If the eyes are brown, and there is fading you might be able to get away with showing it as a Seal, but a knowledgeable judge will know, and notice there is no ruby cast to the eye.

 

[Becky]

Since Seal isn't a recognized variety in Satins, it's probably either show them as blacks or not show them. Actually, it occurs to me now, I could show my self chins as fryers and meat pens, and save the blacks for junior buck and doe. I don't think color matters for meat pens.

 

[skysthelimit]

Since Seal isn't a recognized variety in Satins, it's probably either show them as blacks or not show them. Actually, it occurs to me now, I could show my self chins as fryers and meat pens, and save the blacks for junior buck and doe. I don't think color matters for meat pens.

Hmm, as far as I know, unrecognized breeds and unrecognized colors can be shown in meat pens. I don't know if that is a regional thing though.

 

[Becky]

Since Seal isn't a recognized variety in Satins, it's probably either show them as blacks or not show them. Actually, it occurs to me now, I could show my self chins as fryers and meat pens, and save the blacks for junior buck and doe. I don't think color matters for meat pens.

Hmm, as far as I know, unrecognized breeds and unrecognized colors can be shown in meat pens. I don't know if that is a regional thing though.

My rabbit bowl flash cards say that the things important in a meat pen are meat type, condition, uniformity, and fur; so I wouldn't think it would be an issue.