I can see why a strange bodypart (like a lopped ear on a French Angora, for instance) would be a DQ, but why is a white toenail a DQ?
Disqualification question
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I've never been able to understand this either. There are lots more serious flaws, IMO, that are not DQ's.
lyndseyrk
Well-known member
Because breeding for show is mostly breeding for certain visual characteristics. A judge doesn't care how fast that rabbit grew, if it has a good temperament (as long as it isn't eating him/her), or if it came from stock with a good number of babies/mothering ability. They are judging how that rabbits fits the breed standard. It's up to the owner of the rabbit to encourage the other characteristics as well (if they wish).
As far as something as simple as a toenail, it does seem trivial, but I suppose it came about a long time ago. (Now I'm just guessing but...) if they weren't so strict on things like toenail color, perhaps it came down to judging 2 rabbits that were nearly identical and only one had a mismarked toenail.
As far as something as simple as a toenail, it does seem trivial, but I suppose it came about a long time ago. (Now I'm just guessing but...) if they weren't so strict on things like toenail color, perhaps it came down to judging 2 rabbits that were nearly identical and only one had a mismarked toenail.
I can see it being a fault... and losing the rabbit points in the judging... but a DQ over a white toenail seems excessive to me. One reason I can never get interested in raising rabbits for show.
Silver Star Rabbitry
Well-known member
I'm not sure but I think that white toenails show that the rabbit is a heavily marked broken instead of a solid.
Emily
Emily
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
Silver Star Rabbitry":1sbuxqdh said:
That is one reason, another would be that it may be evidence of "foreign' blood (not purebred)
trinityoaks
Well-known member
I agree wholeheartedly! I once tried growing roses for show (where the standards aren't NEARLY so strict), and quickly decided that showing ANYTHING isn't for me.MaggieJ":cce0umpn said:
All Ears Rabbitry
Active member
The reason why white toenails are a dq in solid rabbits in an ARBA show is because that's what the standard calls for - lol. I breed for matching toenails even in my brokens, not everyone does, but my fear is if I stop breeding brokens then the solids will pop up with mismatched nails. Could just be my paranoia.
I LOVE showing, I love meeting up with friends, getting comments on my rabbits, I love winning and I like losing (strange I know, but you get better critisism when you lose - lol). I did get a BOSB with a homebred jr buck (3 1/2 month old!) at the last show I went to - liked that win - lol. Showing is very objective, you are paying an individual for their opinion. I have learned that the same judge can vary his opinion from week to week.
Sometimes judges miss toenails. I have one that has been placing all year. At the last show it was discovered he's actually missing a nail, and apparently had been for a while with the way things had healed. Oops.
I LOVE showing, I love meeting up with friends, getting comments on my rabbits, I love winning and I like losing (strange I know, but you get better critisism when you lose - lol). I did get a BOSB with a homebred jr buck (3 1/2 month old!) at the last show I went to - liked that win - lol. Showing is very objective, you are paying an individual for their opinion. I have learned that the same judge can vary his opinion from week to week.
Sometimes judges miss toenails. I have one that has been placing all year. At the last show it was discovered he's actually missing a nail, and apparently had been for a while with the way things had healed. Oops.
So....are there cases of people who paint the toenails? (or dye them). It's protein, and would take dye quite easily....I'm just coming from a horse and dog show background where it's big money to win and to have a winning animal. The lengths to which a couple of the farms would go to with young stallions was....um....incredible.
Or is there more of a laid back attitude in the rabbit shows? Since there are so MANY rabbits and you can breed out a bad trait fairly quickly...Bucky is excellent except for that white nail, breed him to Doe1 who is GOOD but no white nails...select top BUCKY2 from the litter..all in the space of a few months....
well geez. I'm just going to have to get into this showing thing, I think. I'm looking at buying a show quality junior buck..and a pair of does who are excellent bodywise, but the color is "wrong" for showing....oh cripes. What am I getting into? :bash:
Or is there more of a laid back attitude in the rabbit shows? Since there are so MANY rabbits and you can breed out a bad trait fairly quickly...Bucky is excellent except for that white nail, breed him to Doe1 who is GOOD but no white nails...select top BUCKY2 from the litter..all in the space of a few months....
well geez. I'm just going to have to get into this showing thing, I think. I'm looking at buying a show quality junior buck..and a pair of does who are excellent bodywise, but the color is "wrong" for showing....oh cripes. What am I getting into? :bash:
Half Caper Farm
Well-known member
Oh, white toenails. :?
Those are a big bugaboo with the Japanese Harlequins. They are allowed "light" toenails, but not "white" toenails. There is one judge who is notorious for kicking rabbits off the table for what he considers a white toenail, when the judge next to him has put it up for BOB. :lol: So far, the exhibitors just smile and thank the judge and go on to the next one.
The rabbit circuit in Ontario doesn't seem to be too cut-throat. :roll: It may be different in the States?
Of course, there's a lot less money at stake with rabbits vs. dogs or horses.
Those are a big bugaboo with the Japanese Harlequins. They are allowed "light" toenails, but not "white" toenails. There is one judge who is notorious for kicking rabbits off the table for what he considers a white toenail, when the judge next to him has put it up for BOB. :lol: So far, the exhibitors just smile and thank the judge and go on to the next one.
The rabbit circuit in Ontario doesn't seem to be too cut-throat. :roll: It may be different in the States?
Of course, there's a lot less money at stake with rabbits vs. dogs or horses.
HendricksHearth
Well-known member
I used to show my Dane and the dog show world is a lot more serious and formal than rabbit shows. It seemed like everyone was doing something they shouldn't- darkening noses, whitening coats, coloring nails, grooming to make the body shape look different, etc. I was at a rabbit show all day yesterday and I didn't see any of that- I am sure it happens with unethical people, but it was not at all like the dog and horse shows I have been to. For my breeds, I did see a few DQ's and the judges were weighing to make sure the animals met the min. weight, checking toenails, eyes, etc. I really liked hearing the comments each judge made about an animal and I learned a lot. As far as people, I would say that most were very friendly, helpful, knowledgeable, etc., but there was one lady in particular that was just awful to me. I have no idea what her beef was considering I never met her before in my life, never have shown before, etc., but she seemed to go out of her way to put my animals down even though the judges had a lot of nice things to say about them. I pretty much didn't pay her any mind after the initial shock wore off, but I found it ironic that she was lecturing loudly about how so many breeders will talk badly about you, back-stab, etc., whereas she apparently felt the need to act like that herself with a complete newbie to the show world. I felt blessed that I had several friends present, including one of the breeders that I purchased my stock from and she is so incredibly sweet and helpful that despite the one bad egg, I still had a wonderful day overall. I am excited to receive the show report!
Also, as far as mismatched toenails, I have a doe with that issue, but all of her offspring had matching toenails and one of her sons that I sold to a friend did very well on the table yesterday for his age, too. I also purchased a lovely Dutch with the teeniest bit of blue in her brown iris that is a DQ, but she is a very nice doe and I will see what her offspring look like before I feel like I can judge her fairly as a brood doe. That is the same thing her breeder does with his stock and he has been raising and showing the breed for decades, so just because someone has a DQ does not necessarily mean that the animal should be culled immediately. In showing, the ultimate goal is to have an animal as close to the standard of perfection for the breed as possible, and although our chances are probably better from a line of show winners, it is still entirely possible that the best animal someone ever produced could have come from a brood quality animal from what I have read and have been told. I hope this makes sense.. I am just starting with my morning cup of joe.
Thanks!
Lauren
Also, as far as mismatched toenails, I have a doe with that issue, but all of her offspring had matching toenails and one of her sons that I sold to a friend did very well on the table yesterday for his age, too. I also purchased a lovely Dutch with the teeniest bit of blue in her brown iris that is a DQ, but she is a very nice doe and I will see what her offspring look like before I feel like I can judge her fairly as a brood doe. That is the same thing her breeder does with his stock and he has been raising and showing the breed for decades, so just because someone has a DQ does not necessarily mean that the animal should be culled immediately. In showing, the ultimate goal is to have an animal as close to the standard of perfection for the breed as possible, and although our chances are probably better from a line of show winners, it is still entirely possible that the best animal someone ever produced could have come from a brood quality animal from what I have read and have been told. I hope this makes sense.. I am just starting with my morning cup of joe.
Thanks!
Lauren
The whole thing makes a bit more sense to me now, but I can clearly see that I am not a show person. I guess I have a pretty utilitarian view of rabbits. I like them and I want good ones... and breed for improvement... but my priorities are practical. I guess that's why I am perfectly content with my mutts.
Glad you had an overall GOOD experience at your show, Lauren. There's ALWAYS one person at every event or show or party or school or gathering who just HAS to put everyone down. It's almost like there's a RULE somewhere that every group gathering must have one jacka...er, fool. I look at it as God's way of keeping me humble or happy "wow..thank god I'm not like THAT woman..sheesh...." and then you make sure to watch what YOU sayto others!
or happy "wow..thank god I'm not like THAT woman..sheesh...." and then you make sure to watch what YOU sayto others!
I'm always told, ignore colour, go for type. So if type is good, colour can always be fixed.
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
Showing is actually proof your breeding program is working (or not working). Utility breeds standards often follow what would make a good meat quality carcass. In fact there used to be meat classes where the fryers were judged alive then butchered and judged again.Sensitivities has put a stop to this.. guess the city people couldn't handle that, not that they were butchered in public!!! So "proven" means two things, one the rabbit meets the breed standard by its placings and two; production in the nestbox! Shows are like records of that rabbit, and whether you have met your personal goals in your program. Yes type is the hardest to fix especially pinched and undercut hindquarters. Colour can be brought back almost in a generation, especially if you opt to go agouti or haha REW
rabbitgeek
Well-known member
The white toenail thing. Its one of the things that has to be Perfect. Its called a Standard Of Perfection. The toenails have to conform to the breed description. Generally the dark rabbits need to have dark toenails. Some judges will fault a rabbit for "uneven colored" toenails rather than DQ for a white toenail.
I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that a white toenail on a dark rabbit means its a heavily marked solid, not a broken.
I would agree that it MIGHT mean a heavily marked solid. After all, a judge has this rabbit in front of them that they never have seen before, so everything has to be taken into account.
When I raised American Blues, a variety of rabbit that has been solid for almost 100 years (1917 accepted in the Standard), we would get white toenails, usually on a front paw, one of the middle toes. These rabbits are solids. They always have been.
I learned to treat the white toenail thing as a separate genetic trait. A very annoying one. If it turned up in a rabbit, that rabbit was removed from the breeding program. Usually there would not be more than two white nails in any litter of 8 or more.
After a couple of years of culling, I was only getting a white nail in every other litter. Because of the Standard, I improved my lines.
Only the first year when I had such a hard time finding Americans would I keep a doe with a white toenail to use as a breeder. I never kept a buck with a white toenail.
If I was raising solely for meat, I could use white nails. But I was raising for show and culls go to the butcher.
I think that showbunny people would be best served to remember to use production traits in choosing rabbits for breeding. It's not just a showbunny. A doe needs to be able to raise kits. A buck needs to be able to breed does and make baby rabbits.
When I only looked for show bodies or eye color or fur color, I would wind up with does that won't breed or won't raise their kits or won't be easy to handle. We've had Grand Champion does that would not raise a litter to save their own life. And that is what I consider a failed bloodline because the line was a dead end at that point.
The goal of herdsmanship is to create a sustainable line of consistently high quality rabbits.
We all have our favorite rabbits, but I love looking at the great-great-great grandson or daughter of a favorite rabbit. Its about the bloodlines and the family tree.
Have a good day!
Franco Rios
I have to respectfully disagree with the statement that a white toenail on a dark rabbit means its a heavily marked solid, not a broken.
I would agree that it MIGHT mean a heavily marked solid. After all, a judge has this rabbit in front of them that they never have seen before, so everything has to be taken into account.
When I raised American Blues, a variety of rabbit that has been solid for almost 100 years (1917 accepted in the Standard), we would get white toenails, usually on a front paw, one of the middle toes. These rabbits are solids. They always have been.
I learned to treat the white toenail thing as a separate genetic trait. A very annoying one. If it turned up in a rabbit, that rabbit was removed from the breeding program. Usually there would not be more than two white nails in any litter of 8 or more.
After a couple of years of culling, I was only getting a white nail in every other litter. Because of the Standard, I improved my lines.
Only the first year when I had such a hard time finding Americans would I keep a doe with a white toenail to use as a breeder. I never kept a buck with a white toenail.
If I was raising solely for meat, I could use white nails. But I was raising for show and culls go to the butcher.
I think that showbunny people would be best served to remember to use production traits in choosing rabbits for breeding. It's not just a showbunny. A doe needs to be able to raise kits. A buck needs to be able to breed does and make baby rabbits.
When I only looked for show bodies or eye color or fur color, I would wind up with does that won't breed or won't raise their kits or won't be easy to handle. We've had Grand Champion does that would not raise a litter to save their own life. And that is what I consider a failed bloodline because the line was a dead end at that point.
The goal of herdsmanship is to create a sustainable line of consistently high quality rabbits.
We all have our favorite rabbits, but I love looking at the great-great-great grandson or daughter of a favorite rabbit. Its about the bloodlines and the family tree.
Have a good day!
Franco Rios
.
This is one of those things that I'm starting to hear in the show world that drives me crazy. Just buy the rabbit that you need. If you don't get her to reproduce, that's okay, as long as she wins.
to me ... what is the point of winning if that rabbit can't reproduce herself? I want to see those babies, and the herd improve.
Devon's Mom Lauren
Well-known member
A non -producing rabbit is not okay in the show world. Most breeders are highly aggravated by that also. However most show rabbits are shown first as juniors then young seniors in order to prove they meet the standard!! Why breed something if you have no idea of its qualities or how it stacks up against others? This is why you can end up with champion rabbits that don't breed, and yes it makes the owners blood boil when it happens. HOWEVER this non breeding/lack of care of litters is not restricted to show animals. Just reading the HT board for a year and the amount of breeding problems that have been posted about mixed breed meat rabbits has been horrendous!I actually believe that the incidence of infertility or ignoring litters or just plain refusing to breed are higher than in the show world! We have had one Jersey Wooly who never bred out of all the show rabbits we have raised.And yes she was a champion and we would have loved to have a litter from her
DevonW
Well-known member
Most show breeders will not keep does (or bucks) who cannot breed because simply, they cannot help further improve your herd. There is no use having a rabbit with 100+ legs if it cannot contribute it's genetic material. The goal of showing rabbits is to improve the breed which cannot be done if those rabbits that have what it takes simply cannot reproduce.
Most breeders will not breed rabbits that have genetic DQ's no matter how nice the rabbit is, because it can seriously harm your herd, and there is no point because you can't show it, and if you breed it you'll keep getting the same thing over and over, which is really pointless.
Most breeders will not breed rabbits that have genetic DQ's no matter how nice the rabbit is, because it can seriously harm your herd, and there is no point because you can't show it, and if you breed it you'll keep getting the same thing over and over, which is really pointless.
Surfing_Bunny
Member
Each of the 45 breeds has a breed standard and a 100 point system they are judged upon. There are DQ's for things like mis matched toenails on dark rabbits. White rabbits can have white toe nails. Mis matched seems to be from mixing brokens and solid. Some solids born in the future have mis matched nails. Which is not allowed. Same goes for a white patch where it should not be for that breed or variety. Another DQ is teeth. Top must always go over bottom teeth. Never the other way.
If interested in producing a show line and showing. The best thing to do is buy the book
"Standard Of Perfection" (SOP) from the ARBA. It has everything about the breed standard and how the points work for each breed. I show rabbits and it's great fun.
Then the winning or best rabbits you have come home to breed. Learning about the faults is a good thing. Then the faults can be bred out and the line improves. So learning faults is not a bad thing. You learn how to improve the line you have. Which is the idea of the game.
It's best to buy show rabbits at a rabbit show. Before buying and when judges are not working a table. You can bring the rabbit you are interested in to the judge and learn about it. Just watch the judge for a quiet moment and ask.
It's well worth the extra money to buy top quality too. Watch who is winning with the breed you are interested in and ask them to buy. Even if it means being on a waiting list sometimes.
Here is a great movie trailer for the movie "Rabbit Fever" It's lots of fun showing and each breed is really fun to see at a show. This will give you a idea about showing rabbits and more about the fun of it all.
http://www.rabbitfever.com/trailer/
If interested in producing a show line and showing. The best thing to do is buy the book
"Standard Of Perfection" (SOP) from the ARBA. It has everything about the breed standard and how the points work for each breed. I show rabbits and it's great fun.
Then the winning or best rabbits you have come home to breed. Learning about the faults is a good thing. Then the faults can be bred out and the line improves. So learning faults is not a bad thing. You learn how to improve the line you have. Which is the idea of the game.
It's best to buy show rabbits at a rabbit show. Before buying and when judges are not working a table. You can bring the rabbit you are interested in to the judge and learn about it. Just watch the judge for a quiet moment and ask.
It's well worth the extra money to buy top quality too. Watch who is winning with the breed you are interested in and ask them to buy. Even if it means being on a waiting list sometimes.
Here is a great movie trailer for the movie "Rabbit Fever" It's lots of fun showing and each breed is really fun to see at a show. This will give you a idea about showing rabbits and more about the fun of it all.
http://www.rabbitfever.com/trailer/
