Disease? feeding? poison? genetic problem?

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Anntann

Anntann

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Odd wasting disease going on here...but only with select colonies. (a new thought at the bottom of post)

Back in May (while I was gone) we had an adult doe suddenly go super skinny and die. (she was fine when I left the house on the rabbit run, but died a week later). Down to skin and bones, I'm told. Everyone else in the colony just fine.

A month ago we processed 4 rabbits from a colony, and when I put them in the carriers to go "out to the farm" one of the 4 was very ribby. His brothers were just fine..quite plump. Mike took great care to look at lungs, inside the intestines for worms, livers, stomachs...looking for something odd. What he found were pink healthy lungs in all 4, no blockages in stomach or intestines, healthy livers, no worms. The only difference was the skinny guy had quite a bit of gas in his intestinal tract, and about 1/2 the amount of food in his stomach. (also in this room was a group of 4 bucks, another group of 2 does...all those rabbits are just fine..fat and glossy. )

Shortly after that, ANOTHER group in ANOTHER colony pen (4 adult does) started to drop weight fast. This group is in another area and have NO contact with the group of young bucks. They pretty much stopped eating anything but hay. skin and bones in 3 days. All 4 of them. When they first started to drop weight, I injected with ivermectin for parasites, started them on papaya bits, calf mana, alfalfa hay..anything to get them eating. For 2 weeks they ate just fine and put on weight again.back up to normal looking and happy...then suddenly (within 3 days again) they dropped all weight and were skeletal. :( They're being euthanized and will get a makeshift necropsy, but I expect the same as with the first group.

All through this the eyes are bright, they move around, run, hop, play. The only difference from the others is that these guys have been licking each other A LOT. Every morning at least one of them will be covered in ... well, it looks like a spiky hair-do. I've looked close in with jeweler's loop to see if I can see mites or anything but nothing. no dander. no fleas. just...they lick each other. (they are molting, btw)

Everyone else in the room is just fine. eating and drinking well. looking fat and happy.

Any ideas?

(now...the last bit of information....all of these rabbits were from litters from the doe who died in May)
 
(now...the last bit of information....all of these rabbits were from litters from the doe who died in May)
Click to expand...

I intend to mull the problem over, Ann, but I was looking for a common denominator in this while I was reading and it would seem that you have spotted it.

So much has happened since May, I don't recall the details of the doe's death. Could you refresh my memory?
 
could they be having diarhhea that you didn't notice b/c they are in a colony? Tyzzer's disease causes diarrhea and severe/rapid wasting of flesh and condition. common in young rabbits but can affect all ages. however, if your rabbits had this, teh cecum should have been enflamed and their should have been small white spots on the liver. there are also nasty strains of pastuerellosis going around. i've seen a rabbit that never ate well and never gained weight for over 6 months before it went into respiratory distress one day and died within 12 hours. its a possiblity, albeit unlikely.
 
if they had all been does I would have gone for uterine or other reproductive cancers ...
but they aren't so I'm going with a genetic cancer of some sort
 
Hairballs? Could all that fur-licking be why they're not eating? Are they getting salt and minerals in some form?
 
The doe who died first(in May) was a big American girl. She'd had 3 litters, was just over 2.5 years old. She was still in with the 4 kits left from her last litter (they were weaned, but not adult yet). she was eating and drinking well, then one morning Mike found her dead in the pen...about 1 week after I'd left for that long drive. She was terribly skinny, so she must have dropped a LOT of weight in those 7-ish days.

There does seem to be diarrhea involved in at least 1 of the recent does. Her hind end was very wet...but not dirty. None of them is ever dirty.

All of the rabbits have been bright eyed and bushy tailed, right up to the end. Today when Mike "took them to the farm", he said he'd take them from the carrier, hold them for a few minutes and they'd be all happy and curious like usual..then he'd set them on the ground and they just dig into the greens (plantain and clover there where he does the deed), and they'd just be happily chowing down when they died.

Again...livers are fine. stomachs had feed, but lots of gas in the intestines. Lungs fine. He did NOT check kidneys nor bladder tho...

Very interesting thought...genetic cancer. possibly renal failure causing? There has been a wiff of "sweet" once in awhile. But it is only there for one evening, or morning check..then it's gone. Mike said the urine was terribly smelly, btw, when he had them in the car.

What they eat:
a 17% alfalfa based pellet free fed every other day.
as much mulberry, plantain, apple, dandelion as they want in the mornings
hay (timothy) at night
mineral block

Once this group of does started to lose weight, I was feeding them a LOT of hay because they weren't eating the pellets..and I thought it might be woolblock (because, like Trinity mentioned, the licking was horrendous). That's when I started the papaya, too. Within a couple of days they started eating pellets again, and chowing down on anything I'd give them. and they gained weight..so I figured all was well....and then....poof.

If the pellets had been bad or there was a poison in the feed (new bale of hay), I'd have thought all the rabbits would show signs of something being "off". but these 4 were the only ones.

These were the last from that line, so if it IS something genetic, problems should be over.

My rabbit vet is on vacation until October, so an actual necropsy won't work. (the other vets in the clinic are totally worthless with anything but dogs and cats)

AND I'm an idiot. :doh: I could have taken one of them in to the University Veterinary school clinic. DUH!<br /><br />__________ Sun Sep 18, 2011 7:55 pm __________<br /><br />A mineral deficiency WOULD cause severe weight problems...not able to process what they take in, or an imbalance...but then I should see it in everyone, because they all get fed the same way? (well...most of them. pregnant and nursing does get all the pellets they can eat as well as hay, and greens. And the angoras get extra sunflower seeds and barley)
 
Sorry, I am trying to make sure I have everything right here.. please correct me if I am wrong:

1. May: 2.5 year old proven American doe dies

2. Mid August: Ribby buck discovered in one coloy- euthanized, produced by above doe.

3. A little later in August: 4 does found underweight in a different colony. Had ups and downs and are being euthanized now, also produced by dead proven doe.

Only symptoms are on and off wasting away, gas in intestines upon death, and some of them licked each other?

I think you can rule out a problem with the hay, pellets, minerals, etc. if all of the other rabbits getting the same thing are fine. I wonder if this line is prone to an enteropathy of some kind. Was their stool normal or could you tell in the colony setting? Sometimes in enteropathy it can go from normal to a small amount of mucous in just a short time before death- maybe the kits were trying to clean each other and that was the wetness on their backside and spiky fur? I'd think you'd see other symptoms in a renal issue than what you have, but hard to say without a legit necropsy.

Best of luck!

Lauren
 
Kidney failure actually can produce minimal symptoms. It's often not a painful death. Most of the symptoms seen in people would not be easy to recognize in rabbits because it is mental problems or physical problems that don't cause noticeable pain like changes in urination or muscle cramps. If it's a slow loss of kidney function an animal can act completely normal while slowly starving to death until the kidney failure gets advanced.

the most common symptoms are loss of appetite, nausea and vomiting.
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Note that rabbits do not vomit. Like horses the stomach is not designed to allow things to go backward unless severe physical damage occurs so you will not see this symptom.

The second most common group of symptoms, called constitutional symptoms, are very subjective and are not confined to one part of the body or organ system. These include fatigue (which may be constant or represent a low tolerance for physical activity), difficulty concentrating, memory loss and sleep disorders.
Click to expand...

http://www.aakp.org/aakp-library/Signs- ... e-Failing/

However I have no idea what would cause kidney failure in 1 group of related rabbits and none others under the same conditions. I actually would lean more towards a digestive tract problem that was helped when the level of hay was increased for awhile. Genetically linked sensitivities or only contagious in close quarters so the mother passed it to the offspring but the rabbits otherwise weren't concentrated enough to pass it to others in the colony. Maybe a bacteria problem. Even your standard bacteria that are needed in the digestive tract can cause problems if something goes wrong. I've dealt with bacterial overgrowth of the small intestines before where bacteria from the large intestine gets in to the small intestine and causes problems of irritation, swelling, gas production (from bacteria digesting things that would normally be absorbed by the body before it reached that particular bacteria), and as a result poor absorption of nutrients. It's common in humans with food intollerances or IBS and there is an antibiotic that is not absorbed by the body so it only works on the digestive tract but since the problem is generally caused by an underlying disorder treatment like that is not usually effective since with the next digestive upset the bacteria just spreads again. A strict diet is usually the only good long term treatment. If these rabbits were raised in colony instead of cages with wire floors ingestion of the mother rabbits droppings that were heavier in bacteria than usual might also do it and is common practice with young animals toward their parents to help populate the digestive tract. It could throw things out of whack so that symptoms appear and disappear over time with minor diet changes or stress. It can be difficult to nail down a vague digestive tract disorder because it's so sensitive toward minor week to week changes we don't think about.
 
My thoughts were similar to akane's--some kind of digestive issue that is possibly genetically linked. due to my own human experiences I started wondering about esoteric things like a missing enzyme or something like an allergy--you know, like celiac disease in humans or something, which can have adult onset, but be genetic inability to digest something particular.
 
Yeah, but there is also almost always a loss of appetite with kidney issues. I don't know about rabbits, but in people there is also very commonly fluid retention as well. Along with anemia. These are things that would have been visible surely in one of the number of them if it was renal. Again, can't say for sure what the problem is without a legit necropsy, but I would lean away from renal function and look at the GI tract.

Best of luck,

Lauren
 
Thank you all for the ideas and thoughts on this. I'm crossing fingers that it IS a genetic issue with that doe and her offspring.

Stools: There appeared to be normal bunny berries, and I didn't see anything odd or watery in the droppings. Could easily have missed something tho, and the amount is difficult to judge (a problem with colony raising).

one note: the "buck" that had the symptoms (rapid weight loss)..after asking Michael about it, he said that while the other 3 from that processing were definitely bucks, that one was "indeterminate or a girl". I hadn't looked closely after removing the first 1/2 of the litter a few weeks before and processing them...thought we had 4 boys left and that we'd pulled the 3 girls and 1 of the boys earlier.

I'm just totally astonished at energy and basic LACK of symptoms with this. If it weren't for the fact that they were skeletal, you'd think they were just fine! Hopping around, eating, drinking, playing with toys, ears up, interested in what was going on around them.

When rabbit vet gets back to town, I'm going to give him a call and ask if he's seen this before. Can't hurt. Hopefully I won't have anyone for him to necropsy :(
 
No real idea what could be wrong, just wishing you success that you find out what's going on.
 

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