Discussion about breeding animals (Split from another thread)

[skysthelimit]

Also, I too am sorry for hijacking the thread... but here I go again, can't help myself.

I've actually done a lot of research and have gotten into some pretty heated debates with people about AKC breeders.

AKC does not write standards, breed clubs do. Each breed club determines the standards for it's breed, just like each rabbit parent club determines the standards for its rabbits. If you look at the German standard and the American standard, they are very close. There is some discrepancy between the degree of angulation, probably an incorrect translation, but there is little to no difference. Not to mention that the gene for angulation came from somewhere, the dog has been "evolving: from it's rudimentary shape from the very beginning, and as all GSDs came from Germany, someone in Germany had to first produce a dog with that kind of angulation to be bred in the US.
The problems come with the interpretation, just like it does with people who breed what they want as far as rabbits, and ignore what the SOP says. Whatever the flavor of the day is, the good old boys do, and if it wins, the standard goes in the pot and people start copying what's incorrect in order to win.

don't blame the AKC, the GSDCA or the ARBA, it's the people who have what's incorrect, know it's incorrect, use the fame/good ole boys system to win, then force others to play along with them or lose.

 

[tailwagging]

Hip Dysplasia has been eradicated from the gene pool of the Seeing Eye Inc. in Morristown NJ. Check their website or facebook page for info.

Couldn't find it on their FB but went to their web. this is what I found. still did not see them say they eradicated it. I don't breed a breed that has this issus But a good friend that bred GR gave me all her books and I'll see if I can find the one on HD.

"Canine Hip Screening Protocol Earns Worldwide Respect

One of the most common physical ailments among dogs is a disorder known as hip dysplasia. Generally defined as malformed hip joints, the disorder can often lead to progressive arthritis in the joint, causing a dog to have difficulty rising, lameness in its rear limbs, trouble negotiating stairs, a wobbling gait, and pain.

By the end of the 1970s, The Seeing Eye began formalizing a method to selectively breed out hip dysplasia by taking and evaluating radiographs (x-rays) of dogs' hips at some point between 14 and 16 months of age, then selecting for breeding only those dogs exhibiting the best hip quality. Radiographs, though administered at The Seeing Eye, were sent to the University of Pennsylvania for evaluation. Although the incidence of hip dysplasia fell markedly over the next several years, progress eventually hit a plateau. But then a veterinary surgeon at the University, Dr. Gail Smith, approached The Seeing Eye with an alternative.

He was experimenting with taking hip x-rays with the legs of the dogs in a neutral, standing position, rather than in the traditional pose, lying down with legs extended. While he had a new method of measuring hip laxity, what he needed in order to establish its efficacy was data, and The Seeing Eye had plenty of dogs to provide that resource. In the late '80s, The Seeing Eye began funding Dr. Smith's work through the Morris Animal Foundation and provided him with radiographs of its dogs positioned using this new procedure.

The test that Dr. Smith developed as a result, called PennHIP®, is now the standard used not only by The Seeing Eye but, increasingly, by veterinarians worldwide. Still, Dr. Dolores Holle and her team at The Seeing Eye were the first to employ PennHIP technology outside the University of Pennsylvania.

"This has become the most effective means available of preventing what is a major health issue for dogs," says Dr. Smith. Most recently, veterinarians in New Zealand have accepted PennHIP as the protocol for hip screening, and Australia is running parallel PennHIP and standard tests. Comparisons will be compiled for five years to determine the protocol moving forward.

"It started as just an idea, and now there are more than 90,000 dogs in the database," says Dr. Smith. "I always say that ideas are cheap … it's the proof of an idea that is expensive, and it was the 'proof' that The Seeing Eye funded and made happen. If that money didn't come, we would not have been able to accomplish what we did. I am forever grateful not just to The Seeing Eye but all the wonderful people there that cared enough to make this happen."

 

[skysthelimit]

Also, I too am sorry for hijacking the thread... but here I go again, can't help myself.

Here's a picture that illustrates how AKC has ruined the American German Shepherd - top dog is a working German Shepherd from top working lines, and the bottom photo is what happens when AKC breeders breed a dog that is designed to run around in circles swoopy legs in a show ring.


Also, Here's a really good article that illustrates how the AKC show standards for German Shepherd have ruined the structure of the dogs. It shows the swoopy leg AKC diagram and explains why it creates dogs that can't walk properly.
http://leerburg.com/gsd-gate.htm

that is not an American bred dog. That roachy back is high german show line. That would not be able to run around the ring with correct motion. If you had shown me a ski slope back, I might own to that, but that thing looks crippled.

Phoenix

Flare

And if you stood them up without the show pose, there backs would be straight. Proper angulation comes from the curve of the stifle, not the back. Anything without a straight, rock hard back is incorrect.

I just hate when people make all encompassing statements, since I raise American bred german shepherd dogs, and non of mines look like that, my boy is 6 and he herds, his daughters and sons herd, the lineage is full of advanced herding dogs, that actually work everyday chores on the farm, they live 9+ years (and counting) and have not had one case of HD yet. They are Grand Victors, herding Victors, breeding register of merit dogs, Region futurity winners, therapy certified, assistance dogs and regular pets.

We (show people) watch those people from the ringside, and wonder why some of them win. Its because of the good ole boy mentality, and sometimes because the judges don't know the standard, and neither do the breeders.

 

[tailwagging]

I have sat ringside and watched Jimmie Moses show in many a time in group. I must say I myself would not want a dog like what he shows. that is why I don't.
my choice not to buy one. his choice to show one.

 

[uhurubuns]

Sabian's Phoenix Rising V Lea Rae??????

ha ha ha ha ha haha! rotflmao :laugh2:

The names! Those stupid, ridiculous, ten-word-long names!

 

[tailwagging]

When you register a dog the name must be unique. so that is what they are. they may show who the breeder or owner is or linage in the name. not stupid, unique.

Sabian's (most likely breeder or breeder's kennel name) Phoenix Rising(the dog's name) V Lea Rae (dam's name)

 

[Bad Habit]

Lol those insanely long names are why I'll never own a show dog. Sometimes reading them makes my head hurt. I've always been a fan of simple names though, plain and simple. Like Chuck. Unoriginal, probably, but simple, easy to remember and I don't run out of breath when telling people my dog's name, lmao!

No offense intended at all, I understand why they have those long names, and I know that every single dog has a shorter call name... but still, it makes my head hurt

 

[tailwagging]

would you like a aspirin? :lol:

 

[Bad Habit]

Naw, just don't confuse me with the official names, and simply tell me the easy to remember call name, lol

 

[tailwagging]

I have champion named Spot.

 

[Bad Habit]

Rabbit or dog? LOL.

Like I said, not intending to offend anyone. But, I mean, it's a dog. It only recognizes one or two sylables. Short call names FTW.

And as far as the German Shepherds go, I saw the most marvelous dog at market, purebred, back was just about dead level when standing, but with a touch and a command, he was sloped and parked out, and moved in a sweeping walk that would have probably won in the show ring. He was a gorgeous dog, so pretty and obviously well bred. If I see him again, I'm totally going to snap a pic

 

[uhurubuns]

the name must be unique

I know, yes. Things like Spot or Blue won't fly, and that's not the breeder's fault. Its the way the registries are set up. It started with rich Victorians a hundred and fifty years ago, and now everyone has to do it. Can you imagine somebody trying to show a dog named Blue at Westminster? They'd get laughed out of the show ring. Its like if it doesn't have a long fancy name, they think its no better than a street dog, so people who breed good dogs (or horses, or dairy cows, or cats) have to give them long names, or they won't be taken seriously.

A long time ago there was a famous quarter horse named Doc Bar. Forty, fifty years later people will max out the name length just to try to squeeze 'Bar' in there somewhere. After all this time, Doc Bar couldn't be any more than about 12% of the genes of the descendants, but oooh that name sells. It ought to be judged by the animal itself, not who its great-great-great-great grandfather was. But unfortunately that's not how it works.

 

[tailwagging]

Rabbit or dog? LOL.

Dog.
It is his call name.

 

[Bad Habit]

I was teasing. You'd expect something simple like Spot for a rabbit's show name

 

[tailwagging]

I knew a GCH Harlequin named yahoo.

I have reg dogs with names like kennel name then Darling, Noel, Glitter, Fantasia ...but the kennel name is unique, so their full name is.

 

[Piper]

Also, I too am sorry for hijacking the thread... but here I go again, can't help myself.

Here's a picture that illustrates how AKC has ruined the American German Shepherd - top dog is a working German Shepherd from top working lines, and the bottom photo is what happens when AKC breeders breed a dog that is designed to run around in circles swoopy legs in a show ring.


Also, Here's a really good article that illustrates how the AKC show standards for German Shepherd have ruined the structure of the dogs. It shows the swoopy leg AKC diagram and explains why it creates dogs that can't walk properly.
http://leerburg.com/gsd-gate.htm

that is not an American bred dog.

I will add that the (most recient) references for your article, is 1979 - that is 15 years ago. A lot has happened, in 15 years.

 

[skysthelimit]

Also, I too am sorry for hijacking the thread... but here I go again, can't help myself.

Here's a picture that illustrates how AKC has ruined the American German Shepherd - top dog is a working German Shepherd from top working lines, and the bottom photo is what happens when AKC breeders breed a dog that is designed to run around in circles swoopy legs in a show ring.


Also, Here's a really good article that illustrates how the AKC show standards for German Shepherd have ruined the structure of the dogs. It shows the swoopy leg AKC diagram and explains why it creates dogs that can't walk properly.
http://leerburg.com/gsd-gate.htm

that is not an American bred dog.

I will add that the (most recient) references for your article, is 1979 - that is 15 years ago. A lot has happened, in 15 years.

I don't recall splitting a thread, did someone think I wanted to continue this conversation?

And a lot has happened in 15 years. just like some of the stupid clothing fads (I can't understand why anyone would want to relive the 80's with 80's parties) dog fads have come and gone. That extreme dog mess is over.<br /><br />__________ Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:26 pm __________<br /><br />

I have sat ringside and watched Jimmie Moses show in many a time in group. I must say I myself would not want a dog like what he shows. that is why I don't.
my choice not to buy one. his choice to show one.

Jimmy shows what he thinks will win. Depending on where he is showing, the dogs are vastly different. And what shows well is not always what breeds well. Not to mention what is showable differs in different parts of the country.

 

[Piper]

I don't recall splitting a thread, did someone think I wanted to continue this conversation?

This thread, is a continuation from an hijack of - this thread breeder-claims-i-m-not-serious-t9538-60.html
MaggieJ, was the one that moved the hijack parts - to start this thread. That is what the split refers to.<br /><br />__________ Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:30 pm __________<br /><br />by the way - I love your dogs!

 

[skysthelimit]

Sabian's Phoenix Rising V Lea Rae??????

ha ha ha ha ha haha! rotflmao :laugh2:

The names! Those stupid, ridiculous, ten-word-long names!

Ha Ha. Sabian is my kennel name. Lea Rae is the breeders kennel prefix.

I imagine you don't show?

Breeders often use themes to name there litters, with special meanings or events. Every seen/read some of the names of horses? Or even rabbits pedigrees? Imagine if I had to put an affix on rabbits names, then poof, they would get long. The register names have some type of meaning, the same concept with naming a rabbitry. I could just name it Rodgers Rabbits, but what fun would that be? I could go into why I named Phoenix what I did, but I don't need to perform more circus tricks for your amusement. You should follow my link and read the names of my other dogs/rabbits.

__________ Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:39 pm __________

I don't recall splitting a thread, did someone think I wanted to continue this conversation?

This thread, is a continuation from an hijack of - this thread breeder-claims-i-m-not-serious-t9538-60.html
MaggieJ, was the one that moved the hijack parts - to start this thread. That is what the split refers to.

__________ Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:30 pm __________

by the way - I love your dogs!

I just thought it should be split sooner, because it looks like I started a thread to continue a conversation that I should have had the wisdom to stay out of in the first place.

Thanks for the compliment. I try to breed towards the middle, I want my dogs to be able to do some type of work as well as show. I have competitive dogs at both ends, I just wish it wasn't so expensive. The moderate dog is more of what you see than the extreme, though I do have one that if I stack him, you could slide a phone straight down to the ground. I did not breed him, and bought him sight unseen. I use him to add a bit of angle to a few girls, but no one here is square, not even my german bred dog. A square dog with the butt up in the air is just as ugly as the other.<br /><br />__________ Tue Sep 04, 2012 9:43 pm __________<br /><br />

Lol those insanely long names are why I'll never own a show dog. Sometimes reading them makes my head hurt. I've always been a fan of simple names though, plain and simple. Like Chuck. Unoriginal, probably, but simple, easy to remember and I don't run out of breath when telling people my dog's name, lmao!

No offense intended at all, I understand why they have those long names, and I know that every single dog has a shorter call name... but still, it makes my head hurt

Not everyone has a long name, no more than people do, but you do have a first and last name right? I don't think it's any more silly than some Spanish people who have four names with the maiden name of their mother and father's surname to denote lineage.

 

[Piper]

but I don't need to perform more circus tricks for your amusement.

Let them have a bit of fun. They do not understand that breeders, can be proud of breeding, and that this can show in the names.
At least they are acknowledging that you are proud enough of your breeding, to basically put, what is a trademark, on animals, that you have bred.
- I still remember, when I was a kid, seeing a pedigree name, kinda like this "Sir Galahad of Highcastle". A animal that had a title? At that time I laughed, too. After having to find a name for the 30th or 40th puppy, to fit AKC guidelines, I understood. lol