dead kits inquest

[Rainey]

I've been asking for help about Alna's litter of 11. We culled the weakest kit a couple days ago. Yesterday we tried separating the kits 5 each in 2 nest boxes, put the smaller lot out for the morning feed. They looked not totally empty but not very full so at midday we tried mixing up formula from our goat's milk and attempted to feed those smaller kits. Got a very little into them. In the evening we put out the second nest box and when it came in 4 kits were very well fed and one unfed and weak--culled that one. This morning we put the box with the 5 smaller kits out, all alive and wiggling when we took them out. Noticed that Alna had finally eaten her grain and drunk moree water than the past few days. Saw Alna get in the box as we left the shed. Went back for the box an hour later and when we checked found all 5 kits dead. Their necks looked odd and we wondered if the doe had killed them all. My apologies for sending such an un-cute photo but we hoped someone with more experience could tell us if these looked like kits killed by the doe.
It wasn't a very pleasant breakfast conversation but we remembered that Alna's first litter that was born in the cold of March died mysteriously when several days old. Now we're worried about putting the remaining 4 live and thriving kits back in for her to feed tonight. We wondered if the smaller kits would have smelled funny to her from being fed the formula. Why would she feed them for several days and then just do them all in? What other explanation is there for them all being dead and their necks looking like that.
Sorry for such a gloomy post on a fine spring morning. There is no joy in Mudville--dead kits and a forecast for snow for the next few days

 

[DBA]

I don't know why she would do that, but I do know I wouldn't breed her any more.

 

[macksmom98]

I am a newbie but I would also be very concerned about this. I might try one more time to breed her, but if the results are the same I would keep her strictly as a pet/sell/cull her. It doesn't seem likely that the doe wouldn't be involved, if that's where you left them. Have you ever seen her stomp on them maybe even accidentally? Best of luck-I am so sorry this is happening....

 

[Homer]

So sorry the hear this Rainey. From the looks I would guess she laid down and smothered them. They really don't look mutilated in any way. The other are right though, I know what I'd do with her.

edit: You might want to control the feeding of the survivors by using a towel in your lap and place her on it and the babies in a pocket under her. I certainly wouldn't leave her unattended with them.

 

[Susie570]

So sorry the hear this Rainey. From the looks I would guess she laid down and smothered them. They really don't look mutilated in any way. The other are right though, I know what I'd do with her.

edit: You might want to control the feeding of the survivors by using a towel in your lap and place her on it and the babies in a pocket under her. I certainly wouldn't leave her unattended with them.

:yeahthat:

I also think they look smothered. I don't think that would be intentional, but :shrug: Not a nice morning surprise.

 

[Dood]

Dead kit inquest

To me they do not looked smothered/trampled but emaciated as I can see ribs and every bone in their spine. I think they lacked the energy to keep warm, got chilled and the milk in their stomachs went rotten and killed them, their larger littermates were likely the only source of heat for these 5

 

[Rainey]

To me they do not looked smothered/trampled but emaciated as I can see ribs and every bone in their spine. I think they lacked the energy to keep warm, got chilled and the milk in their stomachs went rotten and killed them, their larger littermates were likely the only source of heat for these 5

Dood, I remember that in another thread about when to intervene with kits you said you cull a large litter at birth to the number you know a given doe can feed. I'm trying to understand how to make these decisions--how you know with a doe if it is her first litter how many she can feed, why some kits seem to get so much more milk than others. I wondered about the ability of these 5 to survive but tried some of the things suggested. What is hardest for me to make sense of is that they were lively when taken out to her, that she had plenty of milk 12 hours earlier for the larger kits, and that these 5 were all dead when we brought the box back in just an hour later. I guess the smaller/weaker ones get less from the start and then they don't have the strength or size to compete with the ones that get most. So when a large litter is raised successfully is it that the kits in the litter are more equal? that the doe stays longer in the nest so all the kits have a chance to feed? Would you expect the doe to feed the remaining larger and more vigorous kits successfully?
I'm feeling stupid--don't know what I should be learning from this.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Dead kit inquest

To me they do not looked smothered/trampled but emaciated as I can see ribs and every bone in their spine. I think they lacked the energy to keep warm, got chilled and the milk in their stomachs went rotten and killed them, their larger littermates were likely the only source of heat for these 5

I agree with Dood on this one, they look emaciated. Kits that get chilled with milk in their bellies can die very quickly.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

:yeahthat:

My apologies for sending such an un-cute photo but we hoped someone with more experience could tell us if these looked like kits killed by the doe.

No apology needed- a picture speaks a thousand words. They were simply too thin to maintain body heat AND digest milk.

What is hardest for me to make sense of is that they were lively when taken out to her, that she had plenty of milk 12 hours earlier for the larger kits, and that these 5 were all dead when we brought the box back in just an hour later.

Maybe she is a doe that is a "once daily" feeder? :?

So when a large litter is raised successfully is it that the kits in the litter are more equal? that the doe stays longer in the nest so all the kits have a chance to feed?

I think it is just the milking capacity of the doe. Some does produce a lot more milk than others.

Another possibility is that her milk was slow to come in so some of the kits were compromised from the start.

Were you supplementing her at all? I make sure to give my grain mix (oats, barley, wild bird seed, BOSS, flax seed, and a bit of calf manna) to my lactating does. I give about 1/3 cup daily on average, bumping it up for does with larger litters.

I also like to give a little parsley just for the first couple of days. Parsley is a mild emmenagogue (causes uterine contractions) which in turn brings down the milk. Parsley is sometimes used to dry up milk as well, which is why I feed it just for the first 2 or 3 days.

Borage is a spectacular plant for increasing lactation- so effective, in fact, that I once had a doe start to develop mastitis when I fed it. I then had to counter the effect by feeding her mint and catnip for a couple of days. When using herbs you really need to pay attention. :roll:

Would you expect the doe to feed the remaining larger and more vigorous kits successfully?

Yes. Since there are only four they should plump up nicely now. I would suggest keeping the nest in the house and only bringing it out to her for feedings for several days, just so they will stay nice and warm and can put their energy toward digestion and growth.

 

[Zass]

I'd say starved and chilled too.

 

[Rainey]

Maybe she is a doe that is a "once daily" feeder? :?
We'd been taking the nest box out morning and evening and each time some kits were very full and some doubtful if fed


I think it is just the milking capacity of the doe. Some does produce a lot more milk than others.

Another possibility is that her milk was slow to come in so some of the kits were compromised from the start.

Were you supplementing her at all? I make sure to give my grain mix (oats, barley, wild bird seed, BOSS, flax seed, and a bit of calf manna) to my lactating does. I give about 1/3 cup daily on average, bumping it up for does with larger litters.

I also like to give a little parsley just for the first couple of days. Parsley is a mild emmenagogue (causes uterine contractions) which in turn brings down the milk. Parsley is sometimes used to dry up milk as well, which is why I feed it just for the first 2 or 3 days.

Borage is a spectacular plant for increasing lactation- so effective, in fact, that I once had a doe start to develop mastitis when I fed it. I then had to counter the effect by feeding her mint and catnip for a couple of days. When using herbs you really need to pay attention. :roll:

We were trying to supplement but she was being very picky--wasn't eating her grain and especially not the BOSS. We were giving her parsley (I'm confused now about whether that is wrong after the first couple days), nettle, dandelions, willow--things she ate eagerly. I've planted borage just last week--so eventually we'll have that to add

Yes. Since there are only four they should plump up nicely now. I would suggest keeping the nest in the house and only bringing it out to her for feedings for several days, just so they will stay nice and warm and can put their energy toward digestion and growth.

Thanks for your perspective. We've been unsure how to proceed and some advised against putting the last four kits in to be fed after the morning debacle. But they need to be fed and she needs to be feeding or could have problems. Especially discouraging to lose the five kits just when the doe had begun to eat her grain and drink more. But maybe she'll be able to raise the 4--not what we'd hoped for from a meat mutt, but better than nothing.

 

[Dood]

You won't know what a doe is capable of until she has a litter but 5 runts out of 10 tells me she can only feed 5 and I would have kept 2 or 3 runts and split the litter to see if she could feed the extra and cull again if not

I've had runts at birth and usually they catch up fine and other times they continue to fade and likely had some birth defect and weren't meant to be

Unless there is a problem with her milk drying up she should be able to feed the remaining kits without issued

 

[Zass]

I wouldn't split a litter up unless you are 100% sure that your doe is a twice daily feeder. Maybe because most of mine are not, so I'm more worried about it than people who have twice daily feeders...
But the only time I tried keeping just the fatest kits out to skip a feeding, my doe almost got mastitis from not being able to fully empty her teats.

 

[Marinea]

Sorry about the kits. Hopefully, the others will do better.

This doe has given you nothing but problems. I am not sure I would breed her again.

 

[Rainey]

Thank you all for your help--your willingness to discuss an unpleasant topic and not telling me off for how I dealt with (or failed to deal with) the situation.

Dood, I think another time I need to act more quickly when I see some kits falling behind. Once that starts it just seems that even when she has milk, they can't get it. Maybe it's something wrong with them from birth or maybe they just get weaker over time from being underfed. Ones that are really runts, clearly and significantly smaller, I could identify and cull. This litter at the start they were quite similar to my eyes. Next time I'll act more quickly when any fall behind.

Zass, I'm pretty sure she isn't just a once a day feeder. We see her hopping into the box, not while we're in the shed but as we head out the door and can see her through a window. If I am right in understanding that the does only go into the nest box to kindle and then to feed.

Just brought the box in and checked--the 4 remaining kits well fed. So at least these litters of 4 should grow well. Have a third doe due next month. Then we'll have to decide whether to keep breeding any of them or to look for other does and start over.

 

[Zass]

Your right on the money there. It only takes a couple of missed feedings right in the beginning sometimes.

Try not to get too upset.
It's our instinct to try and save the babies, even knowing we will be eating them later.

But, there is not a single rabbit breeder on the planet that can save every single kit born to them. Unlike with other species, the success of a litter is really up to the does.

You might just watch to see which does can get the job done properly without help, and eat the ones who can't.

I'll fuss around a little to reduce mortality, but I absolutely will not keep doe who can't raise a litter without my intervention.

 

[Homer]

Dead kit inquest

To me they do not looked smothered/trampled but emaciated as I can see ribs and every bone in their spine. I think they lacked the energy to keep warm, got chilled and the milk in their stomachs went rotten and killed them, their larger littermates were likely the only source of heat for these 5

The more I look at that picture I think you're right, they do look starved out. Large heads compare to there skinny bodies.

 

[Zass]

If I am right in understanding that the does only go into the nest box to kindle and then to feed.

Well, that's what they should do. But rabbits being rabbits, they are not guaranteed to be doing what they should.

 

[Susie570]

If I am right in understanding that the does only go into the nest box to kindle and then to feed.

Well, that's what they should do. But rabbits being rabbits, they are not guaranteed to be doing what they should.

Some rabbits need to read the Rabbit Handbook. :explanation: :yes:

 

[EnglishSpot]

Fiona used her nest box to rest in and pee in, even after the babies were born. At about ten days old I took the front of the nest box off and that ended that. (But now the babies were loose and she took refuge on top of the box after that!!)