Dead doe - Why did she die? - graphic pictures

[dobergoat]

Alright so all was fine in the colony last night.

This morning my favurite doe is on her side and very dead. I took pictures of her organs, anything look wrong?

It's been unseasonably warm daytime highs this week of +10C. 8 days ago it was -30C. The rabbits have been hot the last few days, lying on their sides, you can tell were uncomfortable. Yesterday the temp dropped back down to -10 at night. Lots of melting snow. In the colony there are 2 breeding does, 3 juniors growing out and 6 kits from the other doe. Everyone seems fine. Last night my buck broke into the colony I forgot to lock his cage and he jumped the fence, a few turfs of hair here and there.

thanks for any input.

Sad as she was my and my kids favourite. But I would like to be sure there is no problems as I don't want this to happen again.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Sorry about your doe. It seems that it is always our favorites.

It looks like she had systemic Pastuerella. There are pockets of pus in her small intestines.

I would take a good look at her lungs to see if she had the respiratory form as well. You will see dark bloody looking patches on them if she was in respiratory distress.

 

[dobergoat]

Here is a picture of the lung and heart.

Non of the rabbits are sneezing, well a few of the kits sneeze ocassionally when they all pile on one another to drinking but that would be from getting some water on their nose. No snot or any goop on anyones nose.

What do you mean by systematic? what should I do? going to go read more.

thank

 

[MamaSheepdog]

What do you mean by systematic?

Systemic, not systematic. Systemic means "throughout the system or body".

There are two ways that Pasteurella manifests itself.

The most familiar is the respiratory form (commonly called "Snuffles") and affects the sinuses causing sneezing and snot. In advanced cases it often moves to the lungs resulting in bronchitis or pneumonia.

The other is systemic and causes abscesses in the tissues and organs.

I consulted a vet about a house rabbit I had twenty years ago who had an abscess in one of her eyes. I am not sure if this is true or not, but she claimed that the systemic form was usually contracted via an injury.

 

[dobergoat]

lol, sorry, I wasn't paying close attention. I was quickly reading while trying to look stuff up to see what to do next before my kids woke up from their nap.

So since I don't seem to have sneezing in any of the rabbits what do I do? I will give apple cider vinigar tonight. And I'll clean the area tomorrow. Not sure what else I can do. Other then watch?

I did notice one other doe is breathing a little heavy. Would that be the start? no runny nose or any matting. I stayed in the rabbit barn for over an hour listening for sneezing etc. nothing other then the heavy breathing or it could have been growling ( her kits were hogging the water and she was pushing past them).

thank you.

It is always the ones you like the most. In 2 years we've had pretty good luck I guess, only one junior died from entritis ( ate a lead pencil), lost 2 litters immidiatly after kindling - my fault, and now Georgie.

 

[arachyd]

Sorry for your loss. I don't think you can be sure of the cause without getting some cultures but there is definitely some kind of infection in those intestines, like MamaSheepdog said.

 

[Miss M]

I'm so sorry you lost the doe.

I agree... wow, do those intestines look bad. The lungs look bad to me, too. They should be smooth and very pale pink. Those look lumpy and whitish.

I would watch that one doe in particular. Decide whether she's breathing hard or growling at kits. If it's the former, quarantine quickly.

Otherwise, I don't know that there's much you can do besides clean what you can, and watch everybunny like a hawk.

 

[dobergoat]

Thank you, this is pretty traumatic. Because were not only attached to the rabbits, but the breed is hard to come by, and I've been working for 2 years to try and improve the stock I bought, and now it looks like I'm going to be losing all my girls I only have the 3 breeding does, and now I'm going to be down to one who is unproven.

I agree... wow, do those intestines look bad. The lungs look bad to me, too. They should be smooth and very pale pink. Those look lumpy and whitish.

The intestines were bad. The lungs didn't look to have any lumps but they were discoloured, didn't look right. One was half light half dark.

So with the intestines so bad does it look like my herd carries this form of pasturella? How long am I looking at qt the herd? a few of the juniors have crust on the eyes, but look healthy and no sounds breathing. Should I be removing any one with crusty eyes?

I seperated the other doe. She is in QT in the garage. So from my reading there is nothing I can do and I should dispatch her? Sounds like pnemonia. Is there a point to have her tested/ necropsy? I'm guessing that would be about $100 since a sheep is $100.

Also does this look like it was an issue for a while?

I've had a closed herd for 2 years and 2 weeks ago brought in 2 juniors from a breeder near by. I was so worried that they would not get along in the colony, that after a few days I caved and I put them into the colony. The one had a previous eye injury ( no eye) that was still healing. Should I be telling the breeder I bought from as a heads up?

thanks, this sucks I thought my rabbits were so happy and healthy.

 

[Miss M]

now it looks like I'm going to be losing all my girls

Not necessarily. Herd resistance is a good thing. If this one doe dies, and no one else seems affected, you may have a resistant herd, except for the doe that died. Good immune systems are to be prized!

The lungs didn't look to have any lumps but they were discoloured, didn't look right. One was half light half dark.

Okay, then it was just the picture. Half light, half dark could be due to blood pooling after death, and could have nothing to do with causing her death.

So with the intestines so bad does it look like my herd carries this form of pasturella?

Some believe that just about every rabbit out there carries some form of pasteurella, that you have rabbits that can resist it, and rabbits that can't. I don't know if that's the case, but there it is.

How long am I looking at qt the herd?

I wouldn't bring in any new rabbits for at least two or three months... longer if others start showing symptoms.

a few of the juniors have crust on the eyes, but look healthy and no sounds breathing. Should I be removing any one with crusty eyes?

With a colony setup, it could just be dust irritating their eyes. How bad is the crust? Did you recently start using any different bedding? Different hay? There are some innocent things that can cause crusting in the eyes. Some members cull for any health issue at all, crust in the eyes included. Others don't. It isn't right and wrong. You just need to decide where you will fall in the scale. Find out what's right for you. You have a breed that you find difficult to get. You need to weigh all these things. Yes, we've had members who've had the black plague decimate their herds. It's something to consider. We've also had members who have had one rabbit die of something that looked really infectious, but they wait, and nothing else happens. That's also something to consider.

I know that doesn't make the decision any easier. I recently have had to deal with the same decision in my herd. I was panicking just like you are now. I contacted one of the members who lost almost her entire herd a couple of years back, fully expecting her to tell me I really needed to just cull them all, set off a small nuclear explosion in my rabbitry to sterilize it, and then start over. Instead, she talked me down from the ledge, and my rabbits are doing fine.

I seperated the other doe. She is in QT in the garage. So from my reading there is nothing I can do and I should dispatch her? Sounds like pnemonia. Is there a point to have her tested/ necropsy? I'm guessing that would be about $100 since a sheep is $100.

Are you sure it is her breathing? The other doe's lungs sound like they very well could have been fine. Is she making noise when she breathes? If you're not sure, you could watch her in quarantine, and see if she is making noise when she breathes, or see if she starts holding her head way up like she's drowning. Just follow proper QT protocol. But it's entirely up to you, whether to take the chance.

As far as testing goes, some do it to find out, some don't. I haven't, but I haven't had the money to. Would I, if I did? Probably not.

2 weeks ago brought in 2 juniors from a breeder near by. I was so worried that they would not get along in the colony, that after a few days I caved and I put them into the colony. The one had a previous eye injury ( no eye) that was still healing.

Stuff like that can be so hard. In cages, you don't have to worry about the rabbits getting along. In a colony, it is a concern. The older the rabbits, the less likely they'll get along. So I understand what you did. In our early days, I had no way to quarantine rabbits. They went straight into the rabbitry. I waited on eggshells to see what would happen. Nothing did.

Would I have quarantined if I could have? Absolutely. Will I tell you that it's okay that you didn't quarantine? No... but you would have had a whole 'nother problem if you had put them in there a month older after QT, and everybody started ripping each other to shreds. Nobody here will say it's a good idea not to quarantine, but I do understand why you did what you did.

You can quarantine new rabbits properly, introduce them to your herd, and still have problems. It's a lot less likely, but it can happen.

Should I be telling the breeder I bought from as a heads up?

As MSD said, the kind of internal infection she had is typically injury-related, especially since it sounds like her lungs were okay. I wouldn't say anything to the breeder unless the other doe does end up having pneumonia.

thanks, this sucks I thought my rabbits were so happy and healthy.

Hang in there. They might be.

What would I do in your shoes? I'd watch and wait. I'd never go out to the colony after tending the QT doe until I had washed up, changed clothes, and washed off my shoes (crocs) -- maybe even bleached them (spray, leave 10 minutes, rinse). I'd let the QT doe be the bellweather. If she's fine, then good. If she's not, then I'd have to turn a more critical eye to the rest of the colony. Exactly what that would mean, I'd have to decide then.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

at those temperature they shouldnt of been breathing heavy.. A big change with weather can affect the rabbits and lower there resistance .... And yes , it is always your favorite .. and it really sucks.
I leave things alone and see how it goes.. Really there is nothing you can do.. the strongers will still be there and the weaker ones will show signs. That makes a stronger herd. .. I wouldnt bring in anymore bunnies.. Try to have a closed herd. Just bring in a buck every few years..

 

[dobergoat]

thanks Miss M and MA. I will try and stay calm, LOL

So I gutted the colony, cleaned everything I could and put a ton of straw back in. Spent the whole day there. Even with the insane amount of dust I made no sneezing. Non of the juniors have crust eyes, seems like it was just the one +10C day. Everyone looks chipper and was getting in my way and under foot, very active, 0 her during the day, and -10 at night so the rabbits seem happier.

I will keep an eye on everyone. The one doe will stay in QT and I'll get my husband to care for her so I don't have to worry about contaminating. She looks healthy, bouncing around in her cage, eating and drinking well. She had a haystash this morning so I'll give her a box just incase she is kindling, that might have been the heavy breathing. But in any case she's living the caged life for a bit.

I don't want to make rash culling choices, but I don't want to be contaminating anyone.

I ended up telling the breeder. She mentioned that she gives all her rabbits the pasturella shot? Is that a live vacinne/shedding? She gets it when her rabbits are in the states. I'll have to look into that. Anyone give their rabbits the shot?

I will try and breath and calm down, and wait, I hate waiting.....

thanks

 

[Miss M]

It's good to hear you didn't get any sneezing with the big cleaning.

Mary Ann's right... severe temperature swings like you've had lately can really do a number on the poor bunnies!

We have done QT like that before, with one person taking care of the sick rabbit and others caring for the rest of the buns. That's very good.

The pasteurella vaccine is brand spanking new and if I recall right, there is no real solid data on it yet. We had a thread on it, and the inventor of the vaccine posted some documents.

info-about-pan-american-vet-labs-vaccine-for-pasteurella-t15713.html

Four pages of discussion for your reading pleasure.

Waiting is not fun, but hopefully, everybunny else will be fine. :good-luck:

 

[dobergoat]

Thanks, I read the thread, and so it's not a live vaccine, but it masks carriers, so might be to late for my herd. Not sure if there is a point to giving the shoot.

I guess we are doing the survival of the fittest method Since my rabbits live on pasture in the summer I think it's the best route for me since there is a possibility that they will be exposed to lots of wild stuff. But in the future I think I will keep one doe caged so I don't lose my whole herd. And maybe run 2 smaller colonies that are not in contact.

So far I have 1 doe, and a bunch of juniors and my buck that all seem fine. But had I not had the last 2 litters in the last month I would have lost all but the one pair. I only breed every 2-3 months. I was lucky that my buck broke into the colony, good boy Peter.

So far only the one other doe is breathing heavy. She just pulled all her fur and is making a nest.

What do I do now? I read to give her antibiotics which might keep her from spreading to the kits. Then seperate them at 4 weeks and keep the kits QT for a while to see if they caught anything? I was going to dispatch her next weekend but I can't do it now, emotionally. I am comfortable giving Sub Cutanious shots if needed and have access to :
Penpro - penicillin G Procaine - 300 000IU
Bio-mycine200 - oxytetracycline amphoteric - 200mg

Tetracycline 250 - 250mg/g or something like that powder to put in water.

Alright - is there a spell check somewhere here? I'm a horrible speller and my computer loves to do random curser movements so I need lots of spell check help !!!!

__________ Wed Jan 22, 2014 10:50 pm __________

Okay so the doe lost her litter, thankfully. Temperature change quickly and she didn't cover them well. Anyway I was dreading having everything work out with the litter and then slowly coming up with symptoms later on.

So I dispatched the doe. Looks like she has something on her lungs?

I also dispatched one from the colony, looks clean figured there is enough gross pictures on this thread.