Color Genetics

[AShelBunny]

I have a broken magpie
When I bred her with my Composite Harley TAMUK she had tri color, fawn, harlequin

I bred her with my REW TAMUK
She gave me four broken (still waiting for colors to come in but I think they are just black or blue?)
Four REW
And one otter

What does that mean for genetics on colors for the REW and the magpie?

 

[AShelBunny]

Here’s the couple who parented these kits

 

[Alaska Satin]

I have a broken magpie
When I bred her with my Composite Harley TAMUK she had tri color, fawn, harlequin

I bred her with my REW TAMUK
She gave me four broken (still waiting for colors to come in but I think they are just black or blue?)
Four REW
And one otter

What does that mean for genetics on colors for the REW and the magpie?

What leads you to believe that the doe is broken magpie rather than just broken black? While she had a tri and a harlequin with the composite buck, the buck could easily carry the needed <e(j)> (as long as he wasn't a chestnut, opal, chocolate agouti or lynx). As I understand it, many composite TAMUKs are, or carry, harlequin.

If she had fawns, you know she at least carries one copy of the non-extension allele <e>. So if she is a broken magpie, she'd be <A_B_c(chd)_D_e(J)e Enen>. You know she must be agouti since you know she is <e(j)e>, and it takes two copies of the harlie allele <e(j)e(j)> to make a self into a harlequin/magpie. If she's a broken black, she'd be <aaB_C_D_Ee Enen>.

The REW buck that sired the current litter would be <?? ?? cc ?? ??>. If that is an otter kit (it may actually be a marten - at this age you wouldn't necessarily see the tan coloration), it would mean that the buck was either self <aa>, otter <a(t)_>, or <Aa(t)> if the doe is indeed a magpie/chinchilla harlequin and hence agouti; in that case, she could be carrying either another agouti <A>, an otter <a(t)> or a self <a>... So, your buck could be <a(t)_ ?? cc ?? ??>, <Aa(t) ?? cc ?? ??>, <Aa ?? cc ?? ??>, or <aa ?? cc ?? ??>.

If the doe is a broken magpie <A_B_c(chd)_D_e(j)e Enen>, she could supply the chinchilla allele <c(chd)> that would turn an otter kit into a marten kit; it would appear as a marten if it got a chin allele from the dam and necessarily got a recessive <c> from the REW site. Black otter is <a(t)_B_C_D_E_>, while black marten is <a(t)_B_c(chd)_D_E_>.

If the doe is actually broken black <aaB_C_D_Ee Enen>, she could still carry a chin allele behind her full-color <C> to make a marten kit.

Either way, the otter/marten kit could have gotten the tan allele, aka otter allele, <a(t)>, from either parent.

If the doe is a broken magpie, the two broken kits may be also, or they could be broken black (from what I can see, their markings look black, not blue). If they are broken black, that means they a copy of self from each parent, so the doe would be either <Aa> (if she's magpie) or <aa> (if she's broken black); and the buck would be either <Aa>, <a(t)a> or <aa>.

The markings on the kits do look more like what you generally see on broken rather than magpie, but both of those patterns are tremendously variable.

 

[AShelBunny]

What leads you to believe that the doe is broken magpie rather than just broken black? While she had a tri and a harlequin with the composite buck, the buck could easily carry the needed <e(j)> (as long as he wasn't a chestnut, opal, chocolate agouti or lynx). As I understand it, many composite TAMUKs are, or carry, harlequin.

If she had fawns, you know she at least carries one copy of the non-extension allele <e>. So if she is a broken magpie, she'd be <A_B_c(chd)_D_e(J)e Enen>. You know she must be agouti since you know she is <e(j)e>, and it takes two copies of the harlie allele <e(j)e(j)> to make a self into a harlequin/magpie. If she's a broken black, she'd be <aaB_C_D_Ee Enen>.

The REW buck that sired the current litter would be <?? ?? cc ?? ??>. If that is an otter kit (it may actually be a marten - at this age you wouldn't necessarily see the tan coloration), it would mean that the buck was either self <aa>, otter <a(t)_>, or <Aa(t)> if the doe is indeed a magpie/chinchilla harlequin and hence agouti; in that case, she could be carrying either another agouti <A>, an otter <a(t)> or a self <a>... So, your buck could be <a(t)_ ?? cc ?? ??>, <Aa(t) ?? cc ?? ??>, <Aa ?? cc ?? ??>, or <aa ?? cc ?? ??>.

If the doe is a broken magpie <A_B_c(chd)_D_e(j)e Enen>, she could supply the chinchilla allele <c(chd)> that would turn an otter kit into a marten kit; it would appear as a marten if it got a chin allele from the dam and necessarily got a recessive <c> from the REW site. Black otter is <a(t)_B_C_D_E_>, while black marten is <a(t)_B_c(chd)_D_E_>.

If the doe is actually broken black <aaB_C_D_Ee Enen>, she could still carry a chin allele behind her full-color <C> to make a marten kit.

Either way, the otter/marten kit could have gotten the tan allele, aka otter allele, <a(t)>, from either parent.

If the doe is a broken magpie, the two broken kits may be also, or they could be broken black (from what I can see, their markings look black, not blue). If they are broken black, that means they a copy of self from each parent, so the doe would be either <Aa> (if she's magpie) or <aa> (if she's broken black); and the buck would be either <Aa>, <a(t)a> or <aa>.

The markings on the kits do look more like what you generally see on broken rather than magpie, but both of those patterns are tremendously variable.

1. I had a broken black and she isn’t black here’s a better picture of mom
2. How do I learn this I’m really interested

 

[AShelBunny]

1. I had a broken black and she isn’t black here’s a better picture of mom
2. How do I learn this I’m really interested

 

[AShelBunny]

What leads you to believe that the doe is broken magpie rather than just broken black? While she had a tri and a harlequin with the composite buck, the buck could easily carry the needed <e(j)> (as long as he wasn't a chestnut, opal, chocolate agouti or lynx). As I understand it, many composite TAMUKs are, or carry, harlequin.

If she had fawns, you know she at least carries one copy of the non-extension allele <e>. So if she is a broken magpie, she'd be <A_B_c(chd)_D_e(J)e Enen>. You know she must be agouti since you know she is <e(j)e>, and it takes two copies of the harlie allele <e(j)e(j)> to make a self into a harlequin/magpie. If she's a broken black, she'd be <aaB_C_D_Ee Enen>.

The REW buck that sired the current litter would be <?? ?? cc ?? ??>. If that is an otter kit (it may actually be a marten - at this age you wouldn't necessarily see the tan coloration), it would mean that the buck was either self <aa>, otter <a(t)_>, or <Aa(t)> if the doe is indeed a magpie/chinchilla harlequin and hence agouti; in that case, she could be carrying either another agouti <A>, an otter <a(t)> or a self <a>... So, your buck could be <a(t)_ ?? cc ?? ??>, <Aa(t) ?? cc ?? ??>, <Aa ?? cc ?? ??>, or <aa ?? cc ?? ??>.

If the doe is a broken magpie <A_B_c(chd)_D_e(j)e Enen>, she could supply the chinchilla allele <c(chd)> that would turn an otter kit into a marten kit; it would appear as a marten if it got a chin allele from the dam and necessarily got a recessive <c> from the REW site. Black otter is <a(t)_B_C_D_E_>, while black marten is <a(t)_B_c(chd)_D_E_>.

If the doe is actually broken black <aaB_C_D_Ee Enen>, she could still carry a chin allele behind her full-color <C> to make a marten kit.

Either way, the otter/marten kit could have gotten the tan allele, aka otter allele, <a(t)>, from either parent.

If the doe is a broken magpie, the two broken kits may be also, or they could be broken black (from what I can see, their markings look black, not blue). If they are broken black, that means they a copy of self from each parent, so the doe would be either <Aa> (if she's magpie) or <aa> (if she's broken black); and the buck would be either <Aa>, <a(t)a> or <aa>.

The markings on the kits do look more like what you generally see on broken rather than magpie, but both of those patterns are tremendously variable.

Also I agree the kits are broken black. Just checked them again and still black. I know I couldn’t tell the tri for a few days though

 

[Alaska Satin]

1. I had a broken black and she isn’t black here’s a better picture of mom
2. How do I learn this I’m really interested

That picture is helpful, thanks!

The small number and size of the markings, and the markings on the ears do suggest harlequin influence, but I've had brokens with patterns similar to that, including what we called "freckled" ears. We all loved them, and it's disappointing that we're no longer seeing them very frequently. But freckled ears seem to go along with partial nose spots and very lightly-marked rabbits, so I've probably selected them out of my line due to show standards. I've had purebred Satins for >8 generations and never had reason to believe there is harlequin in there, so I am reasonably certain mine were truly broken, not magpie.

Your rabbit, though... I'd wouldn't place any bets against her being magpie. I'd want to breed her to an agouti (solid orange or red would be my first choice). If she is magpie <e(j)>, at least some of the kits should end up harlequin <e(j)e>, while others might be orange if she carries a recessive <e>. But if she's harlequin, you would not get any full-color agoutis; if you did, you'd know she was <E_>, which would not look like a harlequin/magpie in an agouti rabbit.

You could also breed her to a chestnut and see if any harlequin or tricolor kits come of it. It's not a for-sure thing, but you would most likely see one or both in a litter with a chestnut (as long as you're sure the chestnut isn't harlequinized" - that is, carrying a recessive copy of <e(j)> which usually shows up subtly).

 

[AShelBunny]

That picture is helpful, thanks!

The small number and size of the markings, and the markings on the ears do suggest harlequin influence, but I've had brokens with patterns similar to that, including what we called "freckled" ears. We all loved them, and it's disappointing that we're no longer seeing them very frequently. But freckled ears seem to go along with partial nose spots and very lightly-marked rabbits, so I've probably selected them out of my line due to show standards. I've had purebred Satins for >8 generations and never had reason to believe there is harlequin in there, so I am reasonably certain mine were truly broken, not magpie.

Your rabbit, though... I'd wouldn't place any bets against her being magpie. I'd want to breed her to an agouti (solid orange or red would be my first choice). If she is magpie <e(j)>, at least some of the kits should end up harlequin <e(j)e>, while others might be orange if she carries a recessive <e>. But if she's harlequin, you would not get any full-color agoutis; if you did, you'd know she was <E_>, which would not look like a harlequin/magpie in an agouti rabbit.

You could also breed her to a chestnut and see if any harlequin or tricolor kits come of it. It's not a for-sure thing, but you would most likely see one or both in a litter with a chestnut (as long as you're sure the chestnut isn't harlequinized" - that is, carrying a recessive copy of <e(j)> which usually shows up subtly).

I have a red New Zealand I just bred to this same REW buck, would one of the REW/Red bucks be good to breed to her?

What do you think the kits will look like in that mix? The REW and Red New Zealand are both pedigree, so I know his entire family tree orla REW, for the reds, she has mostly red and I think a broken red in the grandparents

 

[Alaska Satin]

I have a red New Zealand I just bred to this same REW buck, would one of the REW/Red bucks be good to breed to her?

What do you think the kits will look like in that mix? The REW and Red New Zealand are both pedigree, so I know his entire family tree orla REW, for the reds, she has mostly red and I think a broken red in the grandparents

Yes, I'd try the NZR buck with her! His pedigree isn't so critical, since broken would be obvious in a red (can't hide) so you know he's not broken, and you know for sure the red is <ee>. The <ee> is the important thing in this case because it is recessive to harlie <e(j)>, so you could expect the latter to show up in the kits since they have at least a 50/50 chance, or better, of getting an agouti <A> from each parent (which will allow expression of <e(j)> whether it is in the dominant or the recessive position in the kits).

If the doe does not carry harlie <e(j)> but is in fact broken black <aa...Ee>, the kits with a red buck should be reds (you already know the doe carries a copy of <e>, since she had a fawn kit), chestnuts, possibly chinchillas if both the doe and the NZR carry a chin allele (I'd say possible but not likely in the NZR buck), otters or martens if the NZR carries an otter or a self allele, and/or self blacks or other self colors if the NZR carries a self allele (again I'd say possible but not likely if his whole pedigree is red). You could expect about half of the kits to be broken if the doe is broken (either magpie or black).

If you get even one harlequin or harlequinized kit from your doe x NZR, you'll know the doe is magpie, since <e(j)> could only have come from her (no place in a red, <ee>, for a harlequin allele).

If she's magpie, you could expect reds, harlequins, chestnuts, possibly chinchillas if the NZR carries a chin allele, otters or martens if the doe carries a tan <a(t)> or self <a> allele and the NZR carries a tan <a(t)> or self <a> allele, and/or self blacks or other self colors if both the doe and the NZR carry a self allele. You could expect about half of the kits to be broken if the doe is broken (either magpie or black). If she's a magpie (but not broken) you would not expect to see any broken colored kits at all (though you could get magpies if the buck carries either chin, sable or REW behind his full-color <C>).

 

[AShelBunny]

Yes, I'd try the NZR buck with her! His pedigree isn't so critical, since broken would be obvious in a red (can't hide) so you know he's not broken, and you know for sure the red is <ee>. The <ee> is the important thing in this case because it is recessive to harlie <e(j)>, so you could expect the latter to show up in the kits since they have at least a 50/50 chance, or better, of getting an agouti <A> from each parent (which will allow expression of <e(j)> whether it is in the dominant or the recessive position in the kits).

If the doe does not carry harlie <e(j)> but is in fact broken black <aa...Ee>, the kits with a red buck should be reds (you already know the doe carries a copy of <e>, since she had a fawn kit), chestnuts, possibly chinchillas if both the doe and the NZR carry a chin allele (I'd say possible but not likely in the NZR buck), otters or martens if the NZR carries an otter or a self allele, and/or self blacks or other self colors if the NZR carries a self allele (again I'd say possible but not likely if his whole pedigree is red). You could expect about half of the kits to be broken if the doe is broken (either magpie or black).

If you get even one harlequin or harlequinized kit from your doe x NZR, you'll know the doe is magpie, since <e(j)> could only have come from her (no place in a red, <ee>, for a harlequin allele).

If she's magpie, you could expect reds, harlequins, chestnuts, possibly chinchillas if the NZR carries a chin allele, otters or martens if the doe carries a tan <a(t)> or self <a> allele and the NZR carries a tan <a(t)> or self <a> allele, and/or self blacks or other self colors if both the doe and the NZR carry a self allele. You could expect about half of the kits to be broken if the doe is broken (either magpie or black). If she's a magpie (but not broken) you would not expect to see any broken colored kits at all (though you could get magpies if the buck carries either chin, sable or REW behind his full-color <C>).

My otter changed!!!

And one of my REW!

Maybe frosted and agouti?

 

[Alaska Satin]

My otter changed!!!

And one of my REW!

Maybe frosted and agouti?

Yes, agoutis are usually born looking like the base color (in the case of chestnut and chinchilla, that's black), with agouti trim - light inner ears, belly, jowl markings, undertail; sometimes the eye circles take a little longer to show up. The ring color and ticking takes a while to become apparent.

I'm still not sure that's chestnut agouti, though, as I'm not really seeing tan; that kit could well be chinchilla. Look at the nape triangle and see if that is orange or silver.

As for the white kit, it really could be a number of varieties. Ermine aka frosty (non-extension chinchilla) is one option, since you know both parents carry the non-extension <e>. Himalayans, like frosties, start out pink, then develop their darker points as they grow; as soon as you can tell what color its eyes are, you'll know whether it's himi (pink eyes) or frosty (dark eyes).