Color/Fur question

[PistolPackingMomma]

Okay, I have absolutely no clue about color genetics and all that, so tell me, what sort of color/fur type combination would I get from a Creme d'Argent and Silver Fox mating?

 

[akane]

Silvered chestnuts. I forgot what they are called. If you cross those you can get silvered torts and blacks.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Thanks! I don't suppose there are any pictures to give me an idea? I can sort of picture it, but not entirely sure I've got it right.

I really want SF, but can't find any nearby, and did find someone with Cremes, and my Mom and MIL are already making plans on what they want to do with the pelts, and I wondered if I added SF to my breeding program later down the road what it would look like.

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Did some google searching to get an idea; would an Argente St. Hubert be close to what I could expect?

 

[akane]

yea that's it. I went looking for my pics of st. huberts and silvered torts but couldn't find them.<br /><br />__________ Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:25 pm __________<br /><br />Here's a silvered tort

out in the sunlight

Here's my silvered chestnut (st hubert) in process of silvering

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Thank you, Akane!

Goodness, I came here with the intention of only having meat rabbits, not caring at all about coloration (up til about 5 hours ago), and now my mind is running wild with different color combos, getting a pair of each breed, expanding my non existent rabbitry...

Curse you, rabbitosis acquirus! You've struck again with a new sickness!!! :lol:


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How long does it take them to silver?

 

[Dood]

I woudnt cross with a Creme D'Argent:
- they have other genes that cause the extreme silvering that may mess up the Silver Fox look.
- they are fawn so will add both the agouti gene and the non extension gene which will lead to surprises if you keep kits as breeders
- they are a couple pounds smaller than Silver Fox

Since your priority is meat I would cross with a good production line of black New Zealand's, ( from black parents and only black siblings) this way only the silver gene needs to be added and that can be done in second generation. Then you'll have a bunch of silvered black rabbits you can breed to try and get the unique coat.

 

[akane]

Creme d'argent make great meat rabbits and since these are mutts the color surprises are often wanted. Although it isn't much of a surprise. Like I said first generation you get chestnuts and if you cross those you get torts and blacks plus chestnuts. Not all creme d'argent have extreme silvering. The st hubert in my pic is actually champagne d'argent. My creme is a lot less silvered. They also are not fawn but red. They are not diluted. The silver just makes them lighter. Unless your silver fox carries something you will only ever get those 3 colors.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Dood; if you were to cross the NZ blacks with a silver gene, wouldn't they just end up looking like SF?

Akane, would it make a difference if the SF carried a blue or chocolate or lilac gene?

(I really wasn't interested in coloring until both my Moms mentioned they would like the pelts for sewing projects; my mom wants a real rabbit fur hat, and my MIL runs a small sewing business, and thought she could make genuine rabbit fur lined stockings for Christmas. It got me to thinking about what colors would be best for their needs, since I don't want to waste the furs, and won't have time to use them myself.)

 

[GypsyTinker]

For primer fur, you will have to raise the rabbits to 6 months or more. For meat, only 3 months.

The furs of young fryers can be inconsistent and shed.

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

For primer fur, you will have to raise the rabbits to 6 months or more. For meat, only 3 months.

The furs of young fryers can be inconsistent and shed.

I knew that younger pelts were more delicate, and not for heavy use crafts, but didn't know that about the shedding. Is it pretty bad?

 

[Dood]

I knew that younger pelts were more delicate, and not for heavy use crafts, but didn't know that about the shedding. Is it pretty bad?

In silver breeds it is. You see they are born black and shed out to the silver colour .

if you were to cross the NZ blacks with a silver gene, wouldn't they just end up looking like SF?

yes but they would have more of a New Zealand body and would not have the longer Silver Fox coat

From - http://www.albc-usa.org/cpl/silverfox.html

The young are born either solid black or blue and begin to show silvering of their fur at about 4 weeks. The silvering process takes 4 months to complete. The fur is one of the most attractive and unusual features of the breed. It is extremely dense and 1 1/2 to 2 inches in length. When the fur is stroked from tail to head, it will stand straight up until stroked in the opposite direction. This trait is found in no other breed and greatly resembles the pelt of the silver fox of the Artic

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

I knew they silvered out, but didn't know how many months it took.

So far the only advantage I see the NZ having over the SF is that they are easier to find; I prefer the Silver Fox due to the docile personalities, large litters and good mothering skills.

So what would y'all recommend doing with the pelts? If they're going to shed a lot, they may not be worth the effort to tan and sew...

 

[3mina]

Junior prime generally is 16 weeks or so. The pelts can be harvested then without shedding issues. The colour may or may not be totally there on rabbits with silvering, I have no experience with them. So you will have to keep them a little longer to get good pelts but the carcasses won't be unusable either just bigger.

 

[akane]

You could get some interesting pelts by not waiting for them to fully shed out. Take a look at the pattern on some of these champagnes in process. I especially love the one with the butt stripe.
http://smg.beta.photobucket.com/user/aq ... 0offspring

 

[skysthelimit]

Yes, but if you want something that looks consistent you would want them to grow out (only for big projects). In this line, they can silver as early as 9 weeks, but take much longer.

 

[akane]

I think a rabbit fur quilt with half shed out champagnes would be awesome looking. Just back it with fabric to strengthen the skins so they don't rip at the seams. I aimed for it but I found I just can't stand fleshing out pelts. I tried just salting them to sell but there was enough oil left flies started hatching on the pelts. I threw them all away and gave up but because we had guinea pigs around to fuel the flies we still have the darn things at the end of winter 6months later. My pelt experiments in the end were a disaster on several levels.

 

[Dood]

Another silver option is a 'silver tipped steel' which isnt a silver at all but an agouti, chinchilla and steel coloured rabbit, unlike the true Silvers they have the colour from birth.

I personally LOVE the colour and am keeping one doe for meat mutt production. Her mom is a AmChinchilla and her sire a steel NZ. She has a very docile temperament, is the biggest in her litter and has alot of 'silver' hairs.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Champagne kits don't "shed out" to get the silvering.. it grows in!

 

[PistolPackingMomma]

Is that true for all silvered breeds, or exclusive to Champagnes?

 

[Dood]

All silvered breeds. It is part of the silver genes effect.

It is most noticeable on the D'argents due to the extream silvering and creates quite a dramatic effect.