Colony Feedback Please! - Long Post with Pictures

[madrona]

Hello,
I hope it's ok to start a new thread instead of posting in an older one.
I'll try to be succinct, but include all pertinent information.

I would like feedback on our doe colony. I know that it is not an ideal set up and I have some ideas on how we need to change it, but I don't know enough about rabbits in-depth to anticipate every behavioral and societal eventuality.

I'm including pictures because you don't want to read a few thousand more words than you have to

We would have kept going with the flow except one of our does had babies last night/this morning, and another doe ate them. I don't know why.

Despite having hiding places maybe they don't feel safe because they aren't completely enclosed? I wouldn't mind doing it except we used existing fencing and trees, so the shape of their colony is irregular. And very large.

So why did one doe eat the other's babies? What suggestions do you have for our colony?

This is a little backstory on why we want to have a colony. We want all animals that we are honored to have in our stewardship lead as natural lives as possible. All animals deserve our respect, and to be allowed to act and live true to their animal natures - especially those who will give their lives for our nourishment. Chickens should be allowed to scratch and peck and forage, pigs should be allowed to root and wallow, rabbits should be given the opportunity to dig, burrow, cuddle, groom each other, play, run, and jump.
It's our job to keep them safe doing so. I understand those that use cages do so for their own reasons. In fact my bucks are in cages.

Thanks for reading and any advice!

 

[alforddm]

What makes you think that another doe ate them? Did you actually see her do it? I would be much more likely to suspect rats. They will and do eat kits and the bites can look very much like rabbit bites.

 

[MaggieJ]

Glad to have you with us, Madrona. :welcome:

Can you give us a little more information about the circumstances surrounding the kits being eaten? Did you actually see the doe eating them or is it an assumption because you found mutilated kits and the doe in close proximity? I've never experienced something like that but perhaps with more detail we can reconstruct the crime. Rats do kill and eat or sometimes carry away kits. They are vicious predators and many times I've seen rabbit breeders blame a doe for the deaths until they caught the nasty little varmints in the act.

 

[madrona]

Yes, sorry I should have said that it was my husband that saw Kaneel eating Bess's babies. We are sure they were Bess's babies since she was due yesterday, and Kaneel isn't due for several more days.
What's even stranger is that when I went to check on them when I got home Kaneel was sitting in Bess's nest hanging out. :?
Hope that helps explain.

 

[BlueHaven]

The thing is.. domestic rabbits are not wild animals. They don't have the resistance to the things that ground dwelling rabbits have. Even the instincts that wild rabbits have would be kind of iffy for me. They are raised in cages away from many pathogens the wild rabbits naturally fight. So I don't really feel that ground dwelling for domestics is always as productive (from what I have read) as you would think. Still if you cull heavy for hardiness I am sure it will eventually yield some success. Just does not seem really safe for the rabbits to me. JMO, and you do what you think is best for your herd.

 

[alforddm]

Yes, sorry I should have said that it was my husband that saw Kaneel eating Bess's babies. We are sure they were Bess's babies since she was due yesterday, and Kaneel isn't due for several more days.
What's even stranger is that when I went to check on them when I got home Kaneel was sitting in Bess's nest hanging out. :?
Hope that helps explain.

That is very interesting. You said Kaneel is due in a few more days? I wonder how she will do with her own kits? I wonder if it was a territorial thing or if perhaps the kits had died for another reason and she was cleaning up so to speak?

 

[Zass]

I've read many many posts now about one doe killing another doe's kits in a colony.
Nature can be brutal, and I'm sure wild rabbit does sometimes do it too.
Wild rabbits also suffer and die from disease.

High reproductive rate is naturally indicative of high mortality rates.

It's actually quite unnatural for rabbits to have 10 babies and raise them all to adulthood. We create artificial conditions to make that possible.

I'm not saying that artificial is better, but that careful thought would have to be put into creating colonies where rabbits can live together and raise their litters without losing productivity.

 

[madrona]

BlueHaven - what you say makes sense and I like hearing your perspective. I don't like to think of domestic meat rabbits as the rabbit equivalent of the franken-chicken Cornish Cross. But maybe they are?

I'm just trying to understand the domestic rabbit. They and their place in the world don't make sense to me yet. I watch my 10lb cinnamon "run", which is really just slow loping, and I think that there is absolutely NO way she could escape any kind of predator.
So keeping them outdoors seems cruel now. Argh!

Can we assume they're akin to say, a chihuahua? I'd never leave one of those in the woods assuming it could act like it's ancestor the wolf, but I'd also NOT keep it in a 2'x3' cage for its entire life, with no exercise, sunlight, or fresh air.

I realize I'm just asking a lot of redundant questions, and rambling :lol:

edited for punctuation.

 

[CalicoPrairie]

Madrona, I think it's awesome what you guys are trying to do. My husband and I really don't love the idea of keeping animals in cages, and are slowly working toward a happy medium (safety + a certain amount of mobility and freedom). At the moment we have 8 caged animals. Our other animals are penned with some "out" time, still not perfect, but better than none at all. We are forever thinking of new ways to get these guys some freedom while still keeping everyone safe. All that to say, I totally get you and what you are trying to do. Good luck on your endeavor!

 

[Zass]

I don't like to think of domestic meat rabbits as the rabbit equivalent of the franken-chicken Cornish Cross. But maybe they are?

I'm just trying to understand the domestic rabbit. They and their place in the world don't make sense to me yet. I watch my 10lb cinnamon "run", which is really just slow loping, and I think that there is absolutely NO way she could escape any kind of predator.

Can we assume they're akin to say, a chihuahua? I'd never leave one of those in the woods assuming it could act like it's ancestor the wolf, but I'd also NOT keep it in a 2'x3' cage for its entire life, with no exercise, sunlight, or fresh air.

I realize I'm just asking a lot of redundant questions, and rambling :lol:

edited for punctuation.

I don't think they are like cornish crosses...yet. They do not become damaged by their own growth rates and can successfully reproduce on their own without human assistance...

Most are probably more like labradors than chihuahuas. They can still produce feral populations, under the right circumstances.

It's just that feral populations, and truly wild populations of european rabbits still have very high mortality rates.
The high birth and high mortality rates allow for natural selection to occur at a rapid pace.
In other words, it's a strength.

It allows the species to adapt very quickly to environmental change.

When a breeder saves only their best offspring and harvests the others, they are essentially mimicking the role of a predator. (which prevents overcrowding, disease outbreaks, and generally keeps breeding populations healthier and happier)

The difference is that we (naturally) tend to select for traits that allow our rabbits to survive and thrive alongside of humans. Most are also psychologically adapted in various ways, and have lost much of the natural instincts of wild rabbits, since wild-type fear is actually a hindrance to a domestic animal's happiness and well being.
I doubt that our bun's wild counterparts would have such successful birth and weaning rates if nabbed from the wild and penned up.

I like to think that domestic rabbits are adapted to being...domestic. :lol:

That definitely does not mean they should all be kept in small cages with nothing to interact with.

I also think that it's wonderful when people do their very best to allow the rabbits under their care to be as happy and healthy as they can manage!!!

 

[Preitler]

The thing is.. domestic rabbits are not wild animals. They don't have the resistance to the things that ground dwelling rabbits have. Even the instincts that wild rabbits have would be kind of iffy for me. They are raised in cages away from many pathogens the wild rabbits naturally fight. So I don't really feel that ground dwelling for domestics is always as productive (from what I have read) as you would think. Still if you cull heavy for hardiness I am sure it will eventually yield some success. Just does not seem really safe for the rabbits to me. JMO, and you do what you think is best for your herd.

Actually, domestic rabbits are very close to wild rabbits, it's only very recently that they are bred away from their wild anchestors, about 200 years (compared to many thousend years for most other domestic lifestock). They have most of their abilitys (at least medium sized rabbits), and habbits. Domestic rabbits can live in the wild, but of course size, color, and less vigilant behavior will make them easy prey.

Since their wild cousins live here I had some opportunities to compare - and I had one litter sired by a wild rabbit. Wild rabbits don't cope with close quarters well, that's one major behavioural modification bred into domestics. On the other hand I had 2 does escape and they live a happy, pretty much wild live for 3 years now and had offspring with wild bucks.

Culling for hardiness is the thing to do, in nature that happens anyway. In my opinion, if they are confronted with pathogens all their life their immune system will be different compared to cage rabbits - but of course there will be losses, natural life span of wild buns is about 3-4 years, nature is all about disease, parasites and predators, and about coping with that long enough to reproduce. Never make the mistake to think "all natural, all good", that's a romantic idealization.

And domestics lack the genetical resources wild rabbits have, for example, after half a century exposure about 20% of the wild rabbit population can survive Myxomatosis, increasing, domestic rabbits die.

I would like to keep my bunnies in a colony like that, I keep most of my does together and they get a lot garden time and can dig all they want, but due to predators and lack of bunnyproof fencing I keep them in hutches. And it's easier to care for them, their instict doesn't chose the best way in the eyes of their keeper, but what's engraved in their brains. There may be conflicting goals.

 

[Fireclaws bunnbutts]

It might/probably boils down to competition and or dominance . Not entirely sure about rabbits, but many naturally occurring colony animals which have their own hierarchy within the colony have a system in which the more dominant females will kill a lower ranking females babies to get rid of the competition and make room for her own.

Rodents especially will do this (I know rabbits aren't rodents) but mice and rats will often eat another females babies if they are close to giving birth themselves. You said the offending doe was hanging around the other does nest, it sounds like she wanted that spot as well, so she got rid of the competition.

Nature is cruel and babies are easy targets

 

[wamplercathy]

madrona, I too went through this same dilemma. But after much research have gone with large (2'x2'x4'), all wire cages off the ground. This is strictly a personal choice.

Added note though:
Rabbits don't have the same vaccines as dogs do. Heck they don't even get the same vet care. Just taking a sick rabbit to the vet could worsen the issue. Some diseases were even introduced with the express purpose to kill wild rabbits with no regard to the damage it would do to the domestic rabbit. This is called Viral Hemorrhagic Disease (VHD) (http://www.rabbit.org/care/vhd.html) and it can be carried to your herd by a wild rabbit or any other wild animal that crosses their path that is caring the disease. It won't harm any other animal other than rabbits or according to the surveys that have been done. But it's effects are still being studied to see what the implications are to the human race.

There are many ways to do a safe, secure colony. But they are costly and will eat into your profit margin. A margin that, in the rabbit business, is not very large to begin with.

It all depends on your purpose and at what cost your willing to make to achieve that purpose. Compromise might be the way to go.

 

[madrona]

Basically, we'd like to raise happy rabbits for meat for our family. That sounds so simple, right??? :lol:

So while I'm not running a business, we also want to spend as little as possible.

We already have the fencing, so I think what we need to do is change the shape of our colony to a rectangle (instead of the irregular shape it is now), keep the bottom fenced, as it already is, and add a roof. Completely predator proof that way, then we can add levels and lots more hiding places.

Fireclaws - that was my thought too. I even said to my husband that next time, we breed them all on the exact same day so at kindling time they are focused on themselves and not the other does.
In the meantime I don't think there is any way around there being a hierarchy. My goats, chickens, and pigs do it too.
At least with the rabbits they all seem to like each other - cuddling and grooming. Despite Kaneel eating the other's kits, I have seen them hanging out in close proximity and eating together. Animals are so weird.

 

[alforddm]

I would think breeding them a couple of weeks apart might work better? That way the first litter is two or three weeks old and should be leaving the nest box when the next doe kindles? The drawback is you wouldn't be able to foster kits but it might take away some of the stress and competition between the does.

 

[wamplercathy]

The thought of having them all kindle at or around the same time sounds like a great idea. BUT the head doe might take another does nest because she likes it better then her's. That might mean killing the young in that nest. Also getting all the does breed on or around the same day might be tough then it sounds. :x I had thought to have my 2 does breed like that and Coconut had very very different ideas. :x :lol: :lol: :lol:

But that's animals in general. You might have your plan but they also have their plans. :lol: :lol:

Best of luck though.

 

[madrona]

This conversation has been utterly fascinating. I feel like I've learned more, and gained more insight into rabbits in the past few days than the past year, thanks to you all.

It's such a relief being able to have frank discussions about rabbits from people who understand their true natures.
It's quite frustrating trying to ask questions of a breeder who keeps their animals indoors in small cages. I don't think you can truly understand an animal observing it in unnatural captive circumstances.

 

[Nika]

Don´t you have any predators? My rabbits would dissapear in a few days if I kept them your way