Chocolate Tort?

[alforddm]

Is this a chocolate tort? It is harlequinized, just very lightly marked. Could "at" be a possibility here instead of "a"?

This is one of the ones I've decided to keep out of my rex buck. The other two I'm keeping are a chestnut and a broken black. I really wanted to keep one of the magpies but the chocolate was a buck and the doe was small. Maybe I'll get a keeper magpie out of my chin doe.

 

[Zass]

What color are the parents?

 

[alforddm]

The dam is Mitka my "I'm going to look like a black steel" and the sire is my lilac standard rex buck. No info is known on mitka's background so it could be either "at" or "a".

 

[Zass]

If she's a masked steel, couldn't she also be A_ ?

 

[alforddm]

Oh yes she is A. I meant her other A locus allele. Sorry. I don't think this one is red though? It has darker ear rims and a darker nose.

 

[Zass]

That's where the harli gene makes things a little bit tricky, I think.
I have a harli marked chinchilla kit right now that's so dark on it's white portions I'd almost think it's a steel.. Which I know is impossible.. Thankfully, just a touch of belly white shows to reassure me. (White in the ears, and all other agouti marks are obscured by brindling.)
Has she thrown any other tan pattern kits?

Wouldn't a tort-otter also typically have white inside the ears?

 

[Dood]

I dont don't see tort otter at all

They have self looking saddles with no ring pattern and this one definitely looks agouti so I'd say a smutty fawn and cannot say if it's black or chocolate

 

[Zass]

I think I see chocolate. There is a missing agouti mark on the left fore paw there that could be explained by it being covered by chocolate harli brindling.
The doe's thrown other chocolates, right?

 

[alforddm]

The doe's thrown other chocolates, right?

Yes, she has. There were other chocolates in this litter. One gorgeous chocolate steel. Mitka hasn't thrown any obvious otters. This is her first litter by this buck however. I've been fairly certain her other "blacks" were hidden steel. I don't know for sure if my silver tipped steel buck even carries self.

It would be great if this kit is A. My buck is self so I'll get plenty of that.

My chin doe is due to kindle in a few days. She is out of Mitka but has doesn't have that pesky steel gene. If I have it figured right she should be Ee(or ej) because she didn't get steel from Mitka she must have gotten whichever "e" Mitka carries. It will be interesting to see what her litter looks like.

 

[Zass]

An at_ steel will not have any ticking on the back, or other areas where tans have self-like color.

__________ Sun Jun 28, 2015 1:05 am __________

*looks at harlequin feet*

That's odd...my harlis have orange there too, where the agoutis and chinchillas have white or very pale cream markings on the tops of their front feet. :?

Otters do have solid colored front feet, no agouti marks on top..it's probably the fastest way to distinguish blue otter from opal at a glance..

Torts have darker feet(harder to tell on a chocolate based bun)..
The recessive at wideband can mask the marks,
and harli marks can show up anywhere, and being chocolate based they would really blend in :lol:

 

[alforddm]

Ok, I went out and took pictures of the other kit. This one is out of Mitka's daughter who is also a mostly hidden steel who carries chocolate. She had a magpie in this litter as well sired by the lilac standard rex buck. So I know she is ES(e or ej) A_ Bb as well.

This kit shows more obvious harli markings (This one is the one who actually had me thinking harli was present when it was a kit) but still has the darker nose and ears with a light belly. I didn't manage to get a picture of it but it has a very obvious two tone tail. Orange on the top light on the bottom.

What do y'all think?

 

[Zass]

I don't think you will find too many people with the confidence to id a
harlequinized chocolate tort otter :lol:
The proposed genotype is ata bb C_ D_ eje , right?
I certainly can't say I'm comfortable making even an educated guess here. You are probably right though, because you usually are spot on with your colors.

Here is my simple chocolate tort's belly, in case that helps any.

__________ Sun Jun 28, 2015 7:19 pm __________

But, hmm..I still think tort otters should still have agouti marks on the face?? The pics I see online seem to show that. :? But chocolate colored harli brindling could be interfering with all sorts of things..

 

[alforddm]

I certainly can't say I'm comfortable making even an educated guess here. You are probably right though, because you usually are spot on with your colors.

Lol thank you, but I'm not at all sure about this. These are the first torts for me and while I can generally look at a picture and get an idea, don't know if what i'm seeing are otter markings or just poorly marked. <br /><br /> __________ Sun Jun 28, 2015 5:34 pm __________ <br /><br /> I think the thing I'm finding the most confusing is that the bottom kit seems to have very light eye rings. The photos I see online seem to show torts with darker areas around the eyes.

 

[Zass]

I just wanted to show you how some of the harli brindling has obscured almost all of the facial agouti marks on 3 of my harlequinized chinchilla mutt babies.
A_ B_cchd_D_Eej
Most notably, these two:


They almost look steel , but they are not. Their mother is an extremely clean squirrel, and their father is a magpie. (I'd like to point out the white agouti mark on the far right fore-foot above.) When you flip them over you can see random spots if white agouti marks showing up..But for the most part, even their belly fur is "ruined."

A harlequinized chinchilla with it's agouti marks intact, just for comparison. Plz excuse the shoddy pic, I'm stuck with a 1/2 rate inconsistent camera.


__________ Sun Jun 28, 2015 9:04 pm __________

I had to add this one for fun. She's chocolate based, and...she actually appears to have correct alterations (on her chest and feet too). Too bad it was a mutt who got those genes, and not any of the 15 born to the purebred doe!!! :lol:

 

[alforddm]

Do they have obvious agouti markings when they first get fur or is it going to be a nightmare to tell the harlequinzed castor kits from steel?

 

[Zass]

Do they have obvious agouti markings when they first get fur or is it going to be a nightmare to tell the harlequinzed castor kits from steel?

They are born with the harli brindling determined...It's dark even before they get their fur, sorry.
:nightmare:

 

[TF3]

(Following as I have 6 chestnut kits with various amounts of harle AND steel in okay in the nestbox ... And I don't know which is which at 3.5 weeks -/ I wish I had marked the white bellied vs. the harle bellied eay on as the bellies changed!)

The original pics in this thread look very much like three kits in my first litter out of my
A_ B_ C_ D_ eje doe -- all the others have grey/lighter than black brindling/harle but three appeared fawn but with an underlying shadow on the points which was some effect from the ej (but they didn't deepen like your chocolate nosed one).