Changing cages with 2 week old kits, please help

[LPH_NY]

I knew I would be needing to do this and didn't really think about how it might be very stressful for my doe.

The doe is NZW/Californian cross and she's mean and aggressive to anything or any appendage of anyone entering her cage. Ever since she hit maturity, she's been nothing but an evil little growling Tasmanian Devil. I let her breed in the hopes that it would calm her down. Luckily, her 7 kits, now 2 weeks old are fat and well cared for. But... I have to move the whole family into a new cage. The one she is in now is tiny (30"x30") and the "walls" are made of poultry netting/chicken wire, which poses an escape and or/strangulation hazard for the kits. I can't simply modify the cage. And, because of her aggressive nature, it hasn't had a proper cleaning in weeks.

The kits haven't left the nest on their own yet, but they are able to hop and they all have open eyes - so it's just a matter of time.

I have a new cage that is double the size of the current one. How much stress am I going to cause if I move her... and how should I go about it?

Should I do it in the morning, with food and treats waiting for a hungry doe in the new cage?
Should I move the nestbox in there first? Keep the box out for part of the day until she "settles in" a bit?

I have not handled this doe since her personality/attitude soured at 4 months old (she is now about 6 months old). She attacks everything entering her cage first, then investigates second. The only thing she doesn't attack is the treat-baited cat carrier that I use to "trap" her in so I can check her babies - she actually looks forward to that because of the treats. If I try to "pet" her, I might lose a finger. So take her attitude into consideration when suggesting how I go about the "big move." She doesn't however, go into a freakout over anyone entering the shed, only anything that actually passes the barrier into her cage. She "looks" and "acts" like a friendly rabbit until something goes in.

Obviously I am at fault for not planning far enough in advance for this situation. My original "plan" was to move her a week or so before kindling if the breeding calmed her down. It didn't. Then I figured she would probably destroy her litter, so why bother? Well... she's apparently a decent mom. Kits are fatter and happier than the other litter of kits from a much calmer doe (she also needs to be moved, but not as urgently, as there's no chance of escape for her kits.)

Please help. (BTW, she's a meat producer and has a very desirable body type and that is why I gave her a chance before getting a replacement doe - if you're wondering why I would keep an aggressive rabbit.)

 

[akane]

I would set the cage all up with food, water, maybe treats, and the nest box full of kits. Since most likely you will have had to trap the doe to get the box just dump her in when you are done or put on a very thick pair of gloves and scruff her for the short trip in to the new cage. Observe for at least a few minutes and check throughout the day if possible to see that she won't go on a destruction spree and include the nest box. A nice pile of hay would be a good idea if she does feel destructive. You may have to remove the nest box for awhile but my experience with does who go aggressive when hormones hit is that they adjust better when everything is there all at once instead of disturbing them later to add something. I also found does who go aggressive when reaching sexual maturity only had offspring that did so for many generations of breeding to calm bucks. It just wasn't worth trying for a replacement doe out of them.

 

[Zass]

:yeahthat:

I second everything.

I'm dealing with just such a nightmare animal right now.
The only difference is that I was able to handle her right up until the day before she kindled. This is not her first pregnancy, but she had lost the last two litters due to human error. (People I got her from kept allowing unplanned breedings) My only warning was one little grunt and lunge. Thought maybe she wanted bred....my bad.

My doe is scheduled 4 weeks till freezer camp, just long enough for me to wean the kits off, earlier then I ever normally would, but she's laid into my hand twice now, and I have small children to worry about.

And I'm not bothering to save any of her kits. Just not worth the trouble when the rest of my does are gentle.

 

[LPH_NY]

Thanks for the prompt response! I guess I will just prepare the cage with all the works ahead of time, along with the nest. This should be fun. Maybe she'll be thrilled to stretch out a bit more.

I had daydreamed about saving one of her offspring as future breeding stock, but I have read on here in many places that the does that come from crazy does become crazy does themselves. It's really too bad.

We keep talking about FC for her... but the fact that she's turning out to be a better mom than the other doe makes me want to hold onto her for another litter or two. She definitely loves our buck - actually both does have been making googly eyes at him since about 2 days after kindling.

 

[ottersatin]

Hello LPH,
sounds like you do have a problem, but it is not as hopeless as it appears.
If you can possibly get hold of her, scruff her and press her head to the
floor of the cage or table. Hold her there till she calms down. You must
become the ALPHA showing her that YOU are the bigger rabbit and are
always in control. Sort of like the Dog Whisperer, once you show your dominance
she will settle down. I won't say it isn't risky, as I am not there to see the Rabbit.
I will say the I had a Rabbit once that we swore the Cage was haunted, because
any rabbit we placed in that cage developed a BAD attitude.
Once you get her settled down continue to pick her up frequently, to reinstate
YOUR superiority! I have been bitten in the past more times than I want to remember.
But I now have complete confidence iwhen dealing with Rabbits.
Best of luck, and use caution, if all else fails, there is always the "Golden Hammer Award"
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[akane]

I tried all the bribery and then all the dominance stuff with mine and it didn't make a bit of difference. They were slightly better in colony than cages but the original doe of the line still attacked me from the ground.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

I don't keep any bad does no matter what.. they are so easy to replace for nice ones..It cost the same to feed a mean or a nice one and take the same amount of room. I would put on gloves and make sure you get a good scruff on her and pull her out...

 

[PSFAngoras]

I have brought some rabbits back around that people told me were 'aggressive', but as it turned out, they were only shy and defending themselves. One thing that really helped with them was that if you can get in their cage to scratch their head, it's showing them that they're dominant (in wild rabbit social structure, the subordinates groom the dominant rabbits...), and they won't keep acting nasty and challenging you. With rabbits, this is actually the better thing. I'd never let my dog think she's on too of the chain of command, but my rabbits are and they're all lovey for it. Check out the website 'The language of Lagomorphs.' It's really interesting.

That being said, I have also had several does that were just straight up nasty. They went in the stew pot. I tried holdig kits back from them, one litter has already all been put in the freezer, and the remaining doe from he other litter is now starting to act up now that she's starting to mature. Hind sight is 20/20. I won't be holding litters back from anyone who is not exemplary from now on.

 

[ottersatin]

If you allow an animal [any animal] to dominate you,
YOU are giving up control and allowing that animal to assume Dominance over you.
That is why they continue their aggressive activities.
YOU MUST become the ALPHA in any activities involving yourself
and those animals in your charge. Euthanasia/Stew Pot should always be the very last resort!
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[ladysown]

It's always a bit a thought provoker as to how to deal with cage protective rabbits... as that is what she is. Cage protective. I'm not surprised that she's an excellent mother and she's smart as she figured out cat carrier = awesome treats.

That tells me she could probably be trained/worked with.

Speaking as someone who owns a doe who simply doesn't tolerate other rabbits and who is very demanding about what she wants and how she wants it....I knew it would be a gamble to keep one of her daughters. Her daughter is an absolute sweetheart and handles really really easily and well.

This doe (my Biscuit) has learned that people are a good thing since they bring treats and she has learned that having me check on her babies is not a bad thing, and she'll now tolerate kits up to seven weeks old.

Sometimes those good producers need working around if they produce the best of anyone else around.

I'd be tempted to keep one of her daughters and grow her out just to see what she ends up being like. You'll know before too much time has passed.

Sometimes the trick with cage protective does is to have the ability to switch them around to different cages frequently so the cage no longer becomes an issue. "you want to defend this space, oh here, let me put you in this new cage that smells like someone else". Do that a few times and it's amazing how the need to defend lessens in intensity. They do learn that there really is no point in it. They are safe, they are fed, and their babies aren't hurt.

NOW..that all said.... down right nasty rabbits = freezer. Children who don't listen around biting/protective rabbits = freezer camp AFTER the child has been nipped/scratched once. (children DO need to learn to mind and sometimes they have to learn the hard way).

 

[Zass]

Most children who were born and raised around many animals mind just fine. But my brothers autistic son...no, he doesn't understand very well for his age.
He also loves the rabbits, and loves to go and see them all.

I'm not going to allow this doe to take one of his fingers off. She's not a small rabbit. I have some good size wounds on me right now, since she caught me by surprise. Why would I subject a 5 year old to that?

I've sent way too many nice docile rabbits to freezer camp, so I know replacements are easy to find or produce.

I feel that animals who enjoy our company have much happier lives than a rabbit I have to scruff and hold down just to grab her water crock.
Their anxiety is easy enough to see.

I also have a happier life without a menace in the rabbitry!

 

[LPH_NY]

If anyone is wondering, the cage swap went pretty well. The cage I built turned out to be TOO LARGE for the space alloted for it... my fault, I only measured the length. It would have been too deep to be able to get the door open to the chicken side of the shed. So, instead of using the new cage, we pulled out the crazy doe and her litter, then pulled out the buck... cleaned both cages and swapped them. The buck is less than thrilled, but the crazy doe seems very happy.

She hasn't growled or thumped at me so far... the kits are fat and happy...

AND... I was able to pet her on the head while she was at her food bowl without her showing any sign of objection!!!

Thanks for all the advice.

 

[akane]

You may just simply have a cage aggressive rabbit than a true hormonal crazy rabbit. I'd wean the kits off early and if possible put with a really calm buck or adult doe to hopefully keep them from learning the bad manners of their mother. Make sure you know your rabbits if you try to put an unfamiliar litter with another though. The odd rabbit will try to kill juniors of either gender. If you don't want to risk it you can rebreed the doe at the same time as another, hope they both take, and then swap potential keepers to the nonaggressive doe. Problem is even if everything else works out telling gender that young is a dice roll so you have to foster several or entirely swap litters. Possibly more than once to get what you want.

 

[LPH_NY]

You may just simply have a cage aggressive rabbit than a true hormonal crazy rabbit. I'd wean the kits off early and if possible put with a really calm buck or adult doe to hopefully keep them from learning the bad manners of their mother. Make sure you know your rabbits if you try to put an unfamiliar litter with another though. The odd rabbit will try to kill juniors of either gender. If you don't want to risk it you can rebreed the doe at the same time as another, hope they both take, and then swap potential keepers to the nonaggressive doe. Problem is even if everything else works out telling gender that young is a dice roll so you have to foster several or entirely swap litters. Possibly more than once to get what you want.

Do you have any advice on keeping the cage aggression from coming back before these kits are old enough to wean?

I like the fostering/litterswapping idea for the next time around. It's definitely something I have time to think about. I do plan to breed both does again around the 6 week mark... if we can make it that long. (The other doe is DESPERATE to be bred right now- she lifts when I pet her and will do anything she can to get on top of the buck's cage while I'm dealing with hers.)