Cecotrope question

[CedarRidge]

First post is a medical issue. First-time doe delivered 7 healthy kits. During week 2, (last Friday) came home to find the doe down in her rear end. Vet believes her back isn't broken, but somehow injured her back to the point she can't use her legs. She does have feeling in her legs and tail, and can move them slightly at times. Vet put her on Meloxicam for a week and said she may recover. Equated the condition to a severe back spasm where inflamed muscle is surrounding a nerve. Still eating fine, drinking, and pooping.

Which leads me to my kit question. We are now bottle feeding the kits and giving them the cecoptropes from the doe. She is still producing them at this point and other than her legs not working properly, does not seem to be suffering. (She still nudges balls, eats, drinks, etc.) But, we fear she may not respond to the meds and I'll have to put her down. In the event we do, at what point will the kits be ok without her cecotropes? We have 2 other rabbits but they eat theirs immediately. Current formula is goats milk, kmr, and heavy whipping cream taken readily by the kits.

 

[Heartbased Homestead]

came home to find the doe down in her rear end. Vet believes her back isn't broken, but somehow injured her back to the point she can't use her legs. She does have feeling in her legs and tail, and can move them slightly at times

Sorry to override your vet, but this sounds like classic chemical toxicity symptoms to me.

How could a caged doe even self induce an injury to the point of not being able to use both back legs while retaining feeling yet not having a pain response?

Funny, I looked online and this wasn't even listed as an option for paralyzed leg symptoms in rabbits but it's classic and well known in both humans and dogs. In fact, the "symptoms" of "polio" are paralyzation caused by toxicity (not a virus).

If it resolves in 2 or less days, it's toxicity, I would check for: metal coatings within reach for nibbles, metal in commercial feed, source of hay and if fungicides/insecticides/ect are used. Check well water for chemical residue if you live by farms, if you live in the city I would check if there is a mosquito spray program and cover all open containers of water/food/whole cages.

And on the question about milk, she can still nurse without her legs, so why not let her?

(Caveat: I absolutely would not give her these meds, nor try to nurse the babies with her milk while on them. I would never use chemical meds, herbal remedies are more effective and safer. Vets are mostly chop shops - do they ever help? I haven't seen it.)

 

[Alaska Satin]

How could a caged doe even self induce an injury to the point of not being able to use both back legs while retaining feeling yet not having a pain response?

Toxicity might very well be the explanation; I have no experience with what you're describing. The only toxicity event I've dealt with was from lupine poisoning, which affected the entire rabbit - tremors and loss of internal control but not actual paralysis. However...

Caged rabbits can and do seriously injure their backs, necks and legs. Necks and backs get hurt or broken when the rabbit startles and flings itself around the cage violently, hitting the walls or roof of the cage. The leg issues tend to result from a toenail caught in the wire floor, wrenching the leg when the rabbit moves suddenly.

I recently had a young doe inexplicably get injured at a show. She was fine when I put her in the carrier, fine on the first judging table, but on the second table she couldn't move her front leg - it just dangled there. No one saw anything at all that could explain the injury. I brought her home, put her in a secluded cage, and waited. I was just about ready to give up when I saw her gingerly putting the foot on the floor. It took over a month but now she looks and moves normally.

I've had injured rabbits behave exactly as @CedarRidge describes. Very occasionally they will recover if left in a quiet place - I usually pull them from their wire cage and put them in a solid-bottomed cage with wood shavings. It involves a lot cleaning and placing food and water where they can reach it. I haven't been able to figure out how to tell the doomed ones from the ones that will recover, so it's just a matter of waiting.

And on the question about milk, she can still nurse without her legs, so why not let her?

I agree, I'd try bringing the kits to her to see if they can nurse. You don't have to leave them with her all the time. It's probably pretty uncomfortable for her not to be nursing them, anyway, if she's still in milk. You can continue to supplement with the formula if it looks like they need it.

Which leads me to my kit question. We are now bottle feeding the kits and giving them the cecoptropes from the doe. She is still producing them at this point and other than her legs not working properly, does not seem to be suffering. (She still nudges balls, eats, drinks, etc.) But, we fear she may not respond to the meds and I'll have to put her down. In the event we do, at what point will the kits be ok without her cecotropes? We have 2 other rabbits but they eat theirs immediately. Current formula is goats milk, kmr, and heavy whipping cream taken readily by the kits.

Meloxicam is just an NSAID, intended to reduce inflammation to alleviate pain and allow healing. Whether she heals will depend more on the problem itself. But if she is still acting normally, I'd allow her to keep trying for as long as she wants to try (you usually know when they're done).

As far as the ceoctropes, they're for colonizing the babies' guts with the proper microorganisms. Once they've been eating them, the babies should be fine even if the cecotropes become unavailable. You can also provide normal poops, which will contain many of the same microorganisms. They can come from the mother, or another rabbit, assuming they're healthy and all eating the same stuff.

In fact if you're giving the mother Meloxicam, it might be better to give the kits poops from a different rabbit. I know NSAIDs can disrupt gut flora in people, so it would make sense they might do the same in rabbits, and it's possible that the mother's cecotropes might be deficient or unbalanced in their microorganisms.

Good luck and God bless.

 

[CedarRidge]

Thanks all for the responses. Vet ruled out toxicity because there were no other symptoms throughout the rabbit. It did respond to stimulation, as he "pinched (with forceps)" her legs and all along her spine, getting very intense reactions. Whether it was pain she was feeling, or just pressure and her resisting is yet to be seen. Our rabbits are kept indoors, all fed same mix of hay, pellets, and home grown purely organic herbs. All are watered from a common source. And we are not seeing any symptoms in any of our other bunnies. If this was a toxicity issue, it would have had to come on within a matter of 5 hours and only affected her back end. There was also a noticeable drop in her back line where we suspect the injury occurred. (as if the muscles all relax at the same point along her spine. The one thing we did not do was get an x-ray. Doc said his treatment would be the same regardless (unless we were willing to have surgery - which we were not.)

We did let the kits nurse overnight until we were able to get her into the vet, but once the vet prescribed Meloxicam we had to stop.

Regarding Meloxicam in the stool, I'll have to check that one out. We asked the vet about that and he said it would be okay. Just not to let them nurse.

So, time will tell I suppose. Kits are doing well. Mother seems to be doing well (besides the obvious weakness/lack of use of her back end.)

Thanks again. Still open to any other insight/thoughts.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Regarding Meloxicam in the stool, I'll have to check that one out. We asked the vet about that and he said it would be okay. Just not to let them nurse.

It's not drugs in the stool that would pose the risk I was referring to. NSAIDs affect the gut flora in people. I have no data on rabbits, but it seems a distinct possibility that the mother's microbiome could be pretty messed up in the same way people's are, i.e. some good organisms may be being out-competed by certain harmful organisms which in a healthy, unmedicated gut are kept in check.

The reason you want the kits to eat the cecotropes/poops is to colonize their gut with the mother's healthy microorganisms. Giving the mother an NSAID might eliminate that benefit, which is why I'd be inclined to give them cecotropes/poo from another rabbit.

A couple of things you might think about are
- offering the doe willow branches, if you're not already. Rabbits often self-medicate with the natural analgesic in willow bark, and
- offering her a probiotic (Benebac or even plain yogurt if she'll take it) to help counteract the possible effects of the NSAID on her gut flora.

Glad to hear the mother is hanging in there. I tend to take that as a hopeful sign.

 

[CedarRidge]

Great explanation and tips. Thank you!

 

[Heartbased Homestead]

Since I can't update or delete my previous post on this thread I want to include the update here:

Thank you Alaska Satin for detailing that injuries can happen in cages and can affect the legs! Had no idea and shouldn't have even been inputting my opinion. I revoke my previous comment and apologize for derailing the thread!

 

[Alaska Satin]

Since I can't update or delete my previous post on this thread I want to include the update here:

Thank you Alaska Satin for detailing that injuries can happen in cages and can affect the legs! Had no idea and shouldn't have even been inputting my opinion. I revoke my previous comment and apologize for derailing the thread!

I don't think any apology is necessary; we're all just offering thoughts which may or may not be applicable. Long-distance advice is tricky, at best, and none of us know everything. Not only that, but people's personal experiences sometimes directly conflict with the experiences of others (rabbits and germs don't read the guidebooks!).

I do think it is just as well you can't delete your post, because you offered some interesting information that may help someone. So many times, figuring out what is going on with ailing rabbits is very confusing, and it's nice to have a list of possibilities to work through and eliminate or investigate further. One of the great things about this forum is that there is such a wide range of experiences and perspectives, that we're all learning new things all the time (and not only about rabbits).

 

[Preitler]

Just adding another thought, my dear Chantal came down with E. Cuniculis for some weeks now. One of the symptoms is the partial loss of control of her hind legs, Of course the disorientation and head tilt are the main symptoms, but of what I read symptoms can be quite diverse.

Since I can't update or delete my previous post on this thread I want to include the update here:

Thank you Alaska Satin for detailing that injuries can happen in cages and can affect the legs! Had no idea and shouldn't have even been inputting my opinion. I revoke my previous comment and apologize for derailing the thread!

Actually, you helped . Relax. We are all normal people, with different opinions and experiences, and when sinking our teeth into a problem every opinion counts, sometimes it really helps to think out of the box, we discuss it and sort it out. I actually like, and am thankful for being proven wrong.

This is a special place.