Can kits be given too much formula?

[CedarRidge]

Follow up question regarding my previous post about having to feed my 2.5 week old kits after mother's injury. Breed is Silver Fox. Average weight of 7 kits at 3.5 weeks is 10.67 oz (with what appears to be a fader at 9.5) Lightest is 9.5, heaviest is 12.3.

We started feeding our kits at 2.5 weeks. At that time all seven kits were reluctant to take anything from a syringe, with no more that 3 or 4 ccs being taken each feeding (which occurred every 6 hours.) At that time the kits were nibbling hay and exploring pellets. After 6 days, (today), we are able to get 6 of them to drink reliably and earnestly (chasing the nipple, coming to us in anticipation, etc) and are now feeding them 3 times per day with some taking as much as 25CCs, (although the average is probably 18 CCs) at each sitting. One still will not take anything and only drinks to clean his lips. At most he'll take 2 - 3 CCs per feeding before the battle to get formula in him is probably burning as many calories as the formula is providing. (Not to mention the stress of it all.)

My question to the gang is this: Should we let the other 6 drink as much as they will take (and possibly turning them into formula addicts who rely on the formula rather than further develop the urge to take hay, drink water, etc.) or do we cut them off at a certain point (15CCs for example) at each sitting? I suspect the mother would probably not be able to provide an unlimited supply of milk for her kits, nor would she sit there long enough for each one to be completely satisfied. And at some point the weaning would begin...

Our plan is to go to 2-a-day feedings next week, and I suspect if the pattern holds true, their intake will be astronomical at each feeding if left to take their fill.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

You said they're 3.5 weeks? Shouldn't they be off of formula and heading harder food now?

 

[eco2pia]

It is possible to over feed. It can lead to overweight kits and joint issues--we sometimes see this in kits that are the only one in a litter. I would definitely go to 2x/day, and encourage them to explore and try other food. once they are eating solid food I would give less formula, by 3 weeks they will start to take solid foods and by 4 weeks mom will completely wean them.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Follow up question regarding my previous post about having to feed my 2.5 week old kits after mother's injury. Breed is Silver Fox. Average weight of 7 kits at 3.5 weeks is 10.67 oz (with what appears to be a fader at 9.5) Lightest is 9.5, heaviest is 12.3.

We started feeding our kits at 2.5 weeks. At that time all seven kits were reluctant to take anything from a syringe, with no more that 3 or 4 ccs being taken each feeding (which occurred every 6 hours.) At that time the kits were nibbling hay and exploring pellets. After 6 days, (today), we are able to get 6 of them to drink reliably and earnestly (chasing the nipple, coming to us in anticipation, etc) and are now feeding them 3 times per day with some taking as much as 25CCs, (although the average is probably 18 CCs) at each sitting. One still will not take anything and only drinks to clean his lips. At most he'll take 2 - 3 CCs per feeding before the battle to get formula in him is probably burning as many calories as the formula is providing. (Not to mention the stress of it all.)

My question to the gang is this: Should we let the other 6 drink as much as they will take (and possibly turning them into formula addicts who rely on the formula rather than further develop the urge to take hay, drink water, etc.) or do we cut them off at a certain point (15CCs for example) at each sitting? I suspect the mother would probably not be able to provide an unlimited supply of milk for her kits, nor would she sit there long enough for each one to be completely satisfied. And at some point the weaning would begin...

Our plan is to go to 2-a-day feedings next week, and I suspect if the pattern holds true, their intake will be astronomical at each feeding if left to take their fill.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

When we've raised bottle babies, except for the first day or two (in which we might give several feedings to bump up starving kits), we feed only twice a day. A mother rabbit usually feeds once or at most twice a day, so we go with the latter on the assumption that what we're giving isn't quite as good as mother's milk.

So, twice a day, we give them as much as they will take. I can't remember offhand what the amount is but 18-20cc sounds about right. The babies come running, drink like crazy, then quit on their own when they're full.

By 3.5 weeks they should be nibbling hay and pellets and you might not need to feed twice a day, but you certainly shouldn't be feeding them more than that, and by four weeks you should probably only feed once a day if they're that voracious. I don't know about becoming formula addicts - kits seem to naturally start eating hay and pellets in addition to nursing. But you don't want them to be so full of formula 24/7 that they don't naturally transition to adult food. Their guts are pretty sensitive at this point, and they need to be growing the microorganisms that handle the roughage that makes up their adult diet. Too much milk and not enough roughage will throw a wrench into things.

That said, I've found that continuing to supplement with formula past 4 weeks has never been a problem in terms of kit health. (Many of our does are still nursing their kits when we wean them at 8 weeks.) But all of the kits we've bottle-fed have been severely compromised, so we give them those additional calories and fat, once a day, for 5-6 weeks. Honestly we stop when we're tired of it...probably like the mother.

 

[CedarRidge]

You said they're 3.5 weeks? Shouldn't they be off of formula and heading harder food now?

We've noticed they were nibbling hay and pellets when we had to take them from the mother. But didn't want to discontinue formula outright. we still have hay and pellets available between feedings. This is our first time doing this and the internet (other than forums) and even rabbit vets have varying degrees of knowledge regarding amounts of formula, times to feed, achieving a balance of hard food vs formula, etc.

 

[CedarRidge]

When we've raised bottle babies, except for the first day or two (in which we might give several feedings to bump up starving kits), we feed only twice a day. A mother rabbit usually feeds once or at most twice a day, so we go with the latter on the assumption that what we're giving isn't quite as good as mother's milk.

So, twice a day, we give them as much as they will take. I can't remember offhand what the amount is but 18-20cc sounds about right. The babies come running, drink like crazy, then quit on their own when they're full.

By 3.5 weeks they should be nibbling hay and pellets and you might not need to feed twice a day, but you certainly shouldn't be feeding them more than that, and by four weeks you should probably only feed once a day if they're that voracious. I don't know about becoming formula addicts - kits seem to naturally start eating hay and pellets in addition to nursing. But you don't want them to be so full of formula 24/7 that they don't naturally transition to adult food. Their guts are pretty sensitive at this point, and they need to be growing the microorganisms that handle the roughage that makes up their adult diet. Too much milk and not enough roughage will throw a wrench into things.

That said, I've found that continuing to supplement with formula past 4 weeks has never been a problem in terms of kit health. (Many of our does are still nursing their kits when we wean them at 8 weeks.) But all of the kits we've bottle-fed have been severely compromised, so we give them those additional calories and fat, once a day, for 5-6 weeks. Honestly we stop when we're tired of it...probably like the mother.

Great inputs. Thanks so much. Seems we may be worrying too much (especially when I read elsewhere here that abandoned bunnies after 3 weeks if kept in a litter would likely survive without formula.) Now, were not going to that extreme with these, but feel alot better about their success after reading these inputs. Pretty hardy animals to be so sensitive.

 

[CedarRidge]

It is possible to over feed. It can lead to overweight kits and joint issues--we sometimes see this in kits that are the only one in a litter. I would definitely go to 2x/day, and encourage them to explore and try other food. once they are eating solid food I would give less formula, by 3 weeks they will start to take solid foods and by 4 weeks mom will completely wean them.

Thanks so much. Worrisome father being this is our first litter.

 

[CedarRidge]

Thanks for the inputs. Am hopeful that even the one that fights the feeding is just adverse to formula. Put him in his cage after the last feeding and he immediately started on the hay. May just be the runt that self-weaned early. Time will tell.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Great inputs. Thanks so much. Seems we may be worrying too much (especially when I read elsewhere here that abandoned bunnies after 3 weeks if kept in a litter would likely survive without formula.) Now, were not going to that extreme with these, but feel alot better about their success after reading these inputs. Pretty hardy animals to be so sensitive.

The fact that they are all still alive suggests that you did something right! Taking over for the mother rabbit is never a sure thing.
Nice job.

 

[ladysown]

seeing as I've saved LOTS of kits at 17 days old with very limited formula... shouldn't be too hard to save kits over 3 weeks old.

But in answer to the question "can kits be given too much formula"
the answer is YES, they can. You want to feed til just under full. Too much formula isn't good for them. it's not the same as momma's milk. They do better given hay, oats, fresh greens etc... as soon as possible ... after being able to eat poop and cecatrophes from healthy bunnies.

 

[CedarRidge]

Update: Had to put the mother down today. No improvement after meds, still unable to use her back legs and now that meds are done, was in obvious pain as we had to clean her up each morning. Sad to see her go but she left us with 6 kits that are thriving. Was a great first time mother, doing everything right every step of the way.

 

[Cotton Rabbitry]

Snuggles you and her Kits, you did the right thing for her. When are we going to get update pics of the babes?

 

[CedarRidge]

Snuggles you and her Kits, you did the right thing for her. When are we going to get update pics of the babes?

 

[Sapphire16]

Rolled oats are very easy for them to digest and help their weight gain, and they love them! You are doing a great job, very sad for mom. We had to do the same thing and had 8 to feed from just under one week old, mom broke her back somehow, assumed from a scare in the night. Anyway, it is a big job but so worth the effort! So happy they are doing well.

 

[CedarRidge]

Rolled oats are very easy for them to digest and help their weight gain, and they love them! You are doing a great job, very sad for mom. We had to do the same thing and had 8 to feed from just under one week old, mom broke her back somehow, assumed from a scare in the night. Anyway, it is a big job but so worth the effort! So happy they are doing well.

Thanks for the words of support. Were devasted when we found her. Of course 2nd guessing the set up, should we have done this, should we have done that. Pretty hard to accept that sometimes these things just happen and are out of our control. Living and learning, a little smarter now, a little wiser. This forum has helped us tremendously. And thanks for the oats tip. Started adding those a few days ago.

 

[Sapphire16]

Thanks for the words of support. Were devasted when we found her. Of course 2nd guessing the set up, should we have done this, should we have done that. Pretty hard to accept that sometimes these things just happen and are out of our control. Living and learning, a little smarter now, a little wiser. This forum has helped us tremendously. And thanks for the oats tip. Started adding those a few days ago.

I so totally understand, we did the same thing trying to figure out what happened to prevent it in future, she was a great mom and had such a sweet personality. This is such a good forum, none like it in people so willing to give advice and assistance. Take care and congrats on thriving babies!

 

[Cotton Rabbitry]

Too cute, an keep up the good work

 

[CedarRidge]

Just bred our buck with our other doe today. First attempt 2 months ago was a royal debacle as she just about killed him in the fight. So we switched up and bred him to our other doe, which was actually younger than the first. No issues there, just a single falloff after 3 days of trying. Still, it took resulting in our 6 kits posted above. So, much happier today when we tried again with the original doe. Total acceptance and 3 fall offs in 10 minutes. And the cycle continues…