buying rabbits

[SatinsRule]

Sommr, I've seen both sides of it, and I've bought rabbits from people whose rabbitries I've never seen.

Breeders are becoming increasingly weary about allowing outsiders into their barns and facilities. It's not that they have anything to hide, but rather they realize how extreme the groups are which are bent on bringing about the demise of animal owners. They will lie thru their teeth to bring it about, as the ends justifies the means in their viewpoint, and often times, the breeder is driven well into bankruptcy in the process of defending themselves.

 

[sommrluv]

It's not that they have anything to hide, but rather they realize how extreme the groups are which are bent on bringing about the demise of animal owners. They will lie thru their teeth to bring it about, as the ends justifies the means in their viewpoint, and often times, the breeder is driven well into bankruptcy in the process of defending themselves.

I think that mindset is only going to hurt the breeders in the form of less sales. Are there nuts out there? Of course. But 98% of those involved in rescue organizations have enough time taken up with actual abuse & neglect cases, they certainly don't need to go out and create them. I have yet to see or hear about a reputable breeder with clean facilities and licenses appropriate for their size (e.g. if they are small enough they don't need them) getting in trouble or charged with misconduct.

I think often people just get frightened when someone's personal views are vastly different than their own views.

 

[SatinsRule]

Well, here's just such a link where "abuses" are being openly discussed. If you choose to believe it could never happen in this country, well...

http://vimeo.com/19145473<br /><br />__________ Mon Sep 05, 2011 4:10 pm __________<br /><br />Tell ya what, guys.

I'm seeing the direction this site is going toward ARA mentality and the fact that the folks who run the site are allowing it to happen, and I don't like it, so rather than stick around here banging my head thru a wall "discussing" this thing, I'm outta here.

It's been real.

 

[ilovehome]

Are there nuts out there? Of course. But 98% of those involved in rescue organizations have enough time taken up with actual abuse & neglect cases, they certainly don't need to go out and create them. I have yet to see or hear about a reputable breeder with clean facilities and licenses appropriate for their size (e.g. if they are small enough they don't need them) getting in trouble or charged with misconduct.

Most of us support rescue of abandoned animals or those in a state of suffering. And that is what rescues used to do. SOME rescues, today though, go in and take the healthy in addition to the weak. And they do it with a camera crew in tow, in a "raid". That's what I have an issue with. Rescues should limit themselves to sick, injured or abandoned animals only. And animals can be safely rescued without raid tactics that are now being used.

The video posted is about a lady whose local sheriff's dept. and HSUS (NOT the local shelter) took her horses. HSUS never produced the affadavit with the allegations. HSUS videoed in her home, including in her refrigerator and closets, and took her horses because they were in mud, when there had been record rains the month before. They took them to a pasture 15 miles down the road, and then she had to petition the court to feed and water them because HSUS was not taking proper care of them. After she bonded on the 25 counts, she had to take a drug test every week for 3 months, then call in weekly-this humiliated her. A year later they drop the charges, but by then she has been through the wringer. Maybe this is one of only 2%, but it seems like these raids are happening more and more. More and more cases appear created. Her case is compelling.

I think she is filing a suit against HSUS--whom she had never heard of before this.

 

[ottersatin]

Billy,
thank you for posting: http://vimeo.com/19145473
I believe that every animal breeder/owner should be well aware
of exactly what the H$U$ is up to.
I hope that you are not planing to disappear from this forum
and that you just meant you were through with this particular discussion.
Ottersatin. ldtimer:

 

[sommrluv]

HSUS is certainly a corrupt and ridiculous entity. It's a shame they are so widely confused with actual shelters that have similar names.

I think a lot of it has to do with people knowing their rights, and not being afraid to stand up and say that they are calling a lawyer or they refuse to give someone entry to their home.

As far as in abuse cases where the healthy are seized along with the sick, lawfully they have to assume if there are bad conditions in place, and animals are sick or dying, than it's not something that is going to 'go away' with the loss of the sickest animals. Now, I think that's incredibly different than one or two sick animals because they are old, or are being rehabbed, etc, vs. poor conditions leading to sickness. The officer's hands are tied if it's conditions related.


I think the best parallel I can draw is of how often we as humans just blindly follow the advice or diagnosis of those in the medical profession. I've had doctors want to perform surgery on me the next day, get belligerent and angry when I refuse an open surgery spot to get a second opinion, and all in the end to find out it wasn't a correct diagnosis. I nearly died because of myself or my husband being a little too shell shocked and not knowing what questions to ask in an emergency situation. And I really would have no one to blame but myself.

It's obviously vastly different but I think there are similarities in how often people can get intimidated into not calling a lawyer, signing away animals without knowing the repurcussions, etc.

 

[ilovehome]

As far as in abuse cases where the healthy are seized along with the sick, lawfully they have to assume if there are bad conditions in place, and animals are sick or dying, than it's not something that is going to 'go away' with the loss of the sickest animals.

I disagree that AC, LE or anyone else should be allowed to "assume" anything. That is presumptive guilt, imo, which would not be lawful.

 

[sommrluv]

Not really. If I'm standing over a dead body with a knife in my hand, it's lawful to 'assume' that I have committed murder. Until I would be taken into custody, and questioned, to find out what's going on.

If there are animals with diseases which are a result of starvation, lack of housing, lack of cleanliness, etc and all animals are in these conditions, but maybe some look healthy, it's certainly lawful to 'assume' that all the animals are at risk.

LEO are there to make assumptions based on observations, and provide those in charge with factual info regarding what's transpired, including evidence other than observation. Interpretation is than left up to judges & juries, depending upon how far it goes.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Not really. If I'm standing over a dead body with a knife in my hand, it's lawful to 'assume' that I have committed murder. Until I would be taken into custody, and questioned, to find out what's going on.

I have to disagree. Our law currently states that one is "innocent, until PROVEN guilty" They are not allowed to make any such kind of assumption, though many probably do. What if you came upon the person (not knowing they were dead), pulled your knife as protection while you checked things out? Things are not always what they appear to be...

If there are animals with diseases which are a result of starvation, lack of housing, lack of cleanliness, etc and all animals are in these conditions, but maybe some look healthy, it's certainly lawful to 'assume' that all the animals are at risk.

Again, it is certainly NOT LAWFUL to make any kind of assumption other than that SOMETHING is going on and needs to be further investigated, because the animals COULD BE at risk.

LEO are there to make assumptions based on observations, and provide those in charge with factual info regarding what's transpired, including evidence other than observation. Interpretation is than left up to judges & juries, depending upon how far it goes.

LEO's are there to enforce the law, not to make assumptions. Assumptions do not = factual info. I am married to an LEO and there are many restrictions placed upon them IF they do their job properly, within in the bounds of the law they uphold and enforce. The problem is that there are some that want to act OUTSIDE the bounds of their authority. THAT is the issue that we have with SOME LEO's, not all.

JMO,

Shannon

 

[sommrluv]

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is incorrect. I used "assume" because that's what was used. Officer's aren't judging anyone, which I think is what people are inferring by the word assume. They are doing their job. They can't just happen upon something and let you say "Oh, I just picked this knife up off of the floor." And they reply "Well, thanks for handing me that weapon. Have a great day!"

Animals can't talk. When there are one or two animals that are sick or dead and the reasoning there before you on a platter, they must remove them all. These would be the same laws regarding why all children are removed from an abusive home even if there is only evidence of abuse in one child. The abuser/neglector has already "proven" themselves to be incapable of providing correct care in one instance. Also, if there are more deaths or injuries, than the onus is on the officer and the like because they weren't taking preventative measures.

The observations of a trained leo are factual, not assumptions.


It's really all beside the main point...if you know your rights, and you have irreproachable rabbitries, you have nothing to fear. If you act guilty, have cleanliness issues, and aren't aware of your rights, I can see where things can spiral out of control very fast. There will always be uneducated people in positions of power, whether it be law enforcement, animal rescue, lawyers, judges, etc. That's the beautiful thing about due process and the power of the media, the written word, etc. And educating yourself on the local/federal laws.

DH & I and many of our friends tend towards the survivalist/DIY/off-gridder/prepper/rightist/small gov't mentality. But nothing annoys me more than the general sentiment of total government mistrust that runs rampant among those in the same mindset as us. Having productive relationships with those in local government and not seeing them as an enemy would do a lot for everyone.<br /><br />__________ Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:59 am __________<br /><br />I had another thought, but I'm not sure if anyone would be amenable to it. I agree there are absolutely nuts in the AR side of things. I just disagree that all of them are nuts.

If you are honestly nervous about someone visiting your farm and blowing things out of proportion in order to call the calvary down on you, you have options. I understand everyone has off days and conditions aren't always ideal. I don't think anyone would be charged for the things that could accumulate on an "off" day.

Contact your local PD or AR. Stop by the office with a batch of brownies or some cookies and thank them for what they do in your area. Let them know if they need an "expert" that you are available to take in animals, look over animals, or help with a seizure. Tell them you are nervous because of things you've seen in the media and you'd appreciate them coming to take a look at your facility if they have the time to get a "second opinion" on the cleanliness/lawfulness of your facility.

A proactive breeder concerned about their reputation and appreciative of those who work hard for the animals is a breeder that doesn't have much to fear. This also gives you a 'relationship' with those that would come out if a complaint is ever made against you. And they would have seen your facilities to give a better judgement even if you had an "off day".

 

[OneAcreFarm]

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is incorrect. I used "assume" because that's what was used. Officer's aren't judging anyone, which I think is what people are inferring by the word assume. They are doing their job. They can't just happen upon something and let you say "Oh, I just picked this knife up off of the floor." And they reply "Well, thanks for handing me that weapon. Have a great day!"[/quote}

:lol: Sorry for the miscommunication, in NO WAY did I mean that they would not be required to actually DO something if they saw you there with a knife...Just that they cannot ASSUME that YOU killed the person.

Animals can't talk. When there are one or two animals that are sick or dead and the reasoning there before you on a platter, they must remove them all.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but what if your herd was struck with a virulent enteritis or pasteurella, the kind where they sicken and die almost in front of you? Imagine that you checked your rabbits in the morning, all seemed ok. Then after you leave for work, one or more die. Before you get home, (keep in mind this is a totally made up scenario) you are visited by LEO and HSUS/ARA's who see the dead/sick rabbits and ASSUME that you are not taking care of them and they summarily cart all your rabbits off to a shelter, after putting them in boxes in a trailer with no water or food for hours. At the shelter, they put them all together, regardless of gender, feed them some different food that REALLY does a number on their health and then proceeds to spay/neuter them without you having ever been able to get your day in court? Now, this may seem farfetched, and it somewhat is, but parts of it are true and have happened to others. The trampling of rights and miscarriage of justice is the issue here. If LEO's think there are problems, bring the owner in and show them what the problems are. Give them a certain amount of time to clean up their act or face seizure of the animals...that is how it SHOULD be.

These would be the same laws regarding why all children are removed from an abusive home even if there is only evidence of abuse in one child. The abuser/neglector has already "proven" themselves to be incapable of providing correct care in one instance. Also, if there are more deaths or injuries, than the onus is on the officer and the like because they weren't taking preventative measures.

Alot of times, children are removed only on the suspicion of abuse. Sometimes there was abuse, sometimes not. That, in and of itself is not a bad thing. Alot of times children aren't removed, despite overwhelming evidence of abuse, and bad things happen. I have had good and bad experiences with CPS, enough to know that it does not always go the way it should.

The observations of a trained leo are factual, not assumptions.

They are factual in the sense that the LEO did observe it, but it cannot be said that what they observed was what it appeared to be without further investigation or evidence. To say otherwise is to make an assumption. Of course, if you walk around the corner and see me actually stab someone with a knife, you could accurately say that I killed them, but what if it was in self defense? Isolated observations cannot be taken out of context of the larger scenario.

It's really all beside the main point...if you know your rights, and you have irreproachable rabbitries, you have nothing to fear. If you act guilty, have cleanliness issues, and aren't aware of your rights, I can see where things can spiral out of control very fast. There will always be uneducated people in positions of power, whether it be law enforcement, animal rescue, lawyers, judges, etc. That's the beautiful thing about due process and the power of the media, the written word, etc. And educating yourself on the local/federal laws.

In a perfect world, that is the way it would work. More importantly, it is the way it SHOULD work. Unfortunately it does not always work that way.*sigh*

DH & I and many of our friends tend towards the survivalist/DIY/off-gridder/prepper/rightist/small gov't mentality. But nothing annoys me more than the general sentiment of total government mistrust that runs rampant among those in the same mindset as us. Having productive relationships with those in local government and not seeing them as an enemy would do a lot for everyone.

I totally agree with you. Being married to an LEO makes it easier for me to see both sides. I want to be more self-sufficient and be able to survive in the event of a disaster without standing around with my hands out waiting for help from Uncle Sam. At the same time, extremist groups make me really nervous. Government in and of itself is not a bad thing....it's too MUCH Government that causes problems.

I had another thought, but I'm not sure if anyone would be amenable to it. I agree there are absolutely nuts in the AR side of things. I just disagree that all of them are nuts.

If you are honestly nervous about someone visiting your farm and blowing things out of proportion in order to call the calvary down on you, you have options. I understand everyone has off days and conditions aren't always ideal. I don't think anyone would be charged for the things that could accumulate on an "off" day.

Contact your local PD or AR. Stop by the office with a batch of brownies or some cookies and thank them for what they do in your area. Let them know if they need an "expert" that you are available to take in animals, look over animals, or help with a seizure. Tell them you are nervous because of things you've seen in the media and you'd appreciate them coming to take a look at your facility if they have the time to get a "second opinion" on the cleanliness/lawfulness of your facility.

A proactive breeder concerned about their reputation and appreciative of those who work hard for the animals is a breeder that doesn't have much to fear. This also gives you a 'relationship' with those that would come out if a complaint is ever made against you. And they would have seen your facilities to give a better judgement even if you had an "off day".

I live in a rural area and don't actually HAVE an Animal Control office where I live. Practically everyone near me raises animals of some kind and while I like our PD officer's, they honestly would not know what was considered "proper" for my rabbits. I think compared to most folks near me, my setup is overkill. For high end pet/show breeders, my setup would probably be considered horrible. Outside? No AC? *shudder* Wire cages?!? The horror! :lol:

For myself and my family, we don't allow strangers into our home. Due to the nature of my husband's job, it would be extremely unwise. I have a small feed store down the road where I will happily meet anyone to show them rabbits.

I appreciate the thoughtful and stimulating discussion this thread is providing!

Shannon

 

[ilovehome]

I'm sorry, but your reasoning is incorrect. I used "assume" because that's what was used. Officer's aren't judging anyone, which I think is what people are inferring by the word assume. They are doing their job. They can't just happen upon something and let you say "Oh, I just picked this knife up off of the floor." And they reply "Well, thanks for handing me that weapon. Have a great day!"

Animals can't talk. When there are one or two animals that are sick or dead and the reasoning there before you on a platter, they must remove them all. These would be the same laws regarding why all children are removed from an abusive home even if there is only evidence of abuse in one child. The abuser/neglector has already "proven" themselves to be incapable of providing correct care in one instance. Also, if there are more deaths or injuries, than the onus is on the officer and the like because they weren't taking preventative measures.

The observations of a trained leo are factual, not assumptions.

I am don't even know how to respond. In a past life, I was a CPS investigator for six years and wrote many affadavits requesting custody of only one child in the home who was suffering from abuse or neglect. The constitution and most state laws do not support mass seizures of everything because there was injury to some. Just ask the state of TX when they were overturned on the seizure of all the LDS children a few years ago.

It should NOT be easy for LE, ACO, CPS or an agency to seize anything belonging to a US citizen. I am shocked that US citizens think mass seizures are ok.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

Somebody answer this question--is there anybody out there, as a single person, capable of receiving and caring for, over 100 SICK rabbits in one fell swoop? COuld any of us do that- right now, today, with the resources one has on hand?
I am NOT of the ARA mentality-- and if someone approached me, and asked me to care for 100 NEW animals, that were sick, I would HAVE TO SAY No! Why? because it is beyond my resources at this point.
There is a difference between the terms Animal Welfare and Animal Rights. Now, in order to preserve MY rights, do I really need to show someone I do not know, my rabbitry? A neighbor once told me to bring BigBrother over to see her setup (poultry, mostly) and I told her I would not, because I knew my brother's attitude, and knew what his response would be After he left the property. I told her I would not feel right, inflicting his opinion of how she took an old dairy barn, and made it work for her. I Knew that opinion would pass into the Amish community, and then word-of-mouth would spread like a growing wildfire.
Iam perfectly happy-- I will sometimes buy a rabbit at a livestock sale, knowing the risks, and am also happy with just seeing animals bought out to me by the breeder. I have purchased expensive dogs sight unseen, and refused animals that were 'free'because I knew for a fact, where they were actually coming from. Boy, I think I've written the outline for a college lecture...

 

[sommrluv]

I appreciate the thoughtful and stimulating discussion this thread is providing!

Shannon

I do too! I hope no one thinks I NEED them to agree with me 100%. I like discussion and learning about others opinions. I don't use a lot of emoticons and I think I can be taken bluntly sometimes.

I also think we probably all agree on more than we disagree. I reserve the right to change my opinion, but while I'll agree there could be reasons for not bringing strangers to your house, generally I wouldn't fee comfortable buying animals without seeing where they live.

I tend to use my inner 'warning' meter in general with bringing strangers (say craigslist sales) to the house from time to time, so I understand that.

 

[MaggieJ]

Just like to say that there are valid reasons for concern about allowing people into one's rabbitry that have nothing to do with AR activists. People buying rabbits to add to an existing rabbitry can easily bring in diseases on their clothing or shoes. With pasteurella so rampant these days, I really hesitate to let even rabbit-raising friends into my rabbitry. It cuts two ways... My rabbits could have asymptomatic pasteurella that could be carried back to a friend's rabbitry. You just never know and it's not a risk many of us are willing to take.

I live near a breeder of fancy poultry. I've known him for years and we are on friendly terms. I buy all my poultry from him, but I have never seen inside his facility. He has strict biosecurity in place to protect his birds and I don't blame him a bit.

 

[sommrluv]

That makes a lot of sense and is something I had not considered.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Just like to say that there are valid reasons for concern about allowing people into one's rabbitry that have nothing to do with AR activists.
I live near a breeder of fancy poultry. I've known him for years and we are on friendly terms. I buy all my poultry from him, but I have never seen inside his facility. He has strict biosecurity in place to protect his birds and I don't blame him a bit.

Maggie,

After my experience with P. multocida, I am implementing some precautions as well. I have two separate rabbit areas, one for open does and bucks and one "nursery" for preggo does and does with kits. I also have a designated "quarantine" area, away from the rest of the herd. I have hand sanitizer in each area and I put shallow trays with bleach water just outside the door to step into when going in and out of the area, so I don't inadvertently track something around. Might seem like overkill, but losing all your rabbits is much more painful that a few extra moments spent ahead of time.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

BioSecurity is a good, valid reason to use for keeping things unseen. Simple enough to explain, and 'fear' of 'activists' and false accusations need not be exposed. Keep an area for the 'for sale rabbits, with simple measures, such as OneAcreFarms in place in that little area- and yes,you show you are serious about the bio security- And Craigslist people-- it is at a public parking lot for them!!