Bucks

[OneAcreFarm]

I have done this only until they reach sexual maturity (for my Cals/NZW) or until they start beating the stuffing out of each other. Rexes, OMG...they seem to be much more agressive at earlier ages! I have had 6wk olds humping each other and 12wk old bucks half killing each other!

I have never seen anything like it. All but one set of kits were humping at 6 weeks. And they were serious! This was not just some testing the water thing. They have to be separate as soon as I can. I almost never grow out bucks for that reason alone, not near enough space.

I am finding that to be true more and more...I have a litter right now that is determined to make each other into "rare earless rabbits" as fast as possible! LOL

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Man, you guys have aggressive Rex. We are way behind on processing, and I still have growouts housed together (separated by sex)that are pushing 5 months. there is an occasional scramble, but nothing serious. (Yet! )

 

[Stormy]

I am finding that to be true more and more...I have a litter right now that is determined to make each other into "rare earless rabbits" as fast as possible! LOL

Is it possible they don't have enough room and feel cramped? I have 27 kits all growing out together in my 10'x4'x6' (with shelf levels) and let them out to run in the day pen which is about 10-15' across. Plus 2 adult does. No one is humping anyone, at 9 weeks... I know every rabbit and breed is different but I would think SPACE would have a huge impact on dominance struggles. The more space, the less aggression. Perhaps if the babies had more room there would be less fighting.<br /><br />__________ Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:28 am __________<br /><br />

Yes, that is what I said about the buck, but if all the does live in one colony and some of them kindle in a communal nest, or once they leave the nest, how do you know who the dam is? :shock:

Well, they all taste the same.

I guess it depends on what your purposes are. If you are wanting to sell the rabbit as a pedigreed individual one would need to control the breeding so the does were not kindling at the same time. Just because of my mistakes of learning how bucks can hop fences got my does knocked up at the same time doesn't mean that's the way to do it! My plan is to stagger breeding by at least a couple weeks so I know who is who in the future, if I am going to keep any individuals for breeding or selling. Its easy enough to do. I have had to learn to keep the buck locked up (he's free-roaming) when I exercise the girls in their field pens - since nothing can stop those rabbits.

 

[skysthelimit]

Is it possible they don't have enough room and feel cramped?

I don't think 4 6 wk old kits in a 30x30 are cramped. I had two in a 24x24 and they had to be separated still. My bucks also cage fight when housed next store to each other.

 

[Stormy]

Is it possible they don't have enough room and feel cramped?

I don't think 4 6 wk old kits in a 30x30 are cramped. I had two in a 24x24 and they had to be separated still. My bucks also cage fight when housed next store to each other.

Well, from what I've read, that's not enough space for harmonized rabbits. I know that's standard size for cage breeders, but no where near the size for what is recommended for social setups. Yours are maturing fast and tolerating less, but if you had them in a bigger cage I'll bet you wouldn't have the same problems. Its all about SPACE. To me, a 2.5' x 2.5' cage is tiny, too tiny for four rabbits to feel like they have enough personal space. Maybe 2 rabbits-? I had my 2 American does in a 4' long x 2' wide cage, 2 stories, and was amazed they got along as well as they did - I thought that cage was too small for them to live socially - but they were fine. Happier with the 10ftx4ft of course! Once the colony pen was built, that cage now is just the night cage for 1 buck. Belgians require a lot of space, he wouldn't be able to be housed in a cage that small if I didn't let him out to roam every day.

 

[hoodat]

hm... so,along with all the things I said in my previous post, you also need to find bunnies that get along/are more mellow/ adjust well/have the right personality. Then, there would be no problems.

A change in the situation can bring out aggresiveness also. I had a pair of twin bucks who lived together in peace for around 5 months till one day a doe chewed through a cage divider and got into the cage with them. They never actually tangled but I could see they were about to when the more aggresive one began chasing the other one and holding him in a corner so I seperated them to avoid the inevitable fight.

 

[OneAcreFarm]

Man, you guys have aggressive Rex. We are way behind on processing, and I still have growouts housed together (separated by sex)that are pushing 5 months. there is an occasional scramble, but nothing serious. (Yet! )

I actually DO have some growout bucks together that are coexisting more or less harmoniously...the ones that were beating each other up were culled.

__________ Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:15 am __________

Is it possible they don't have enough room and feel cramped?

I don't think 4 6 wk old kits in a 30x30 are cramped. I had two in a 24x24 and they had to be separated still. My bucks also cage fight when housed next store to each other.

Well, from what I've read, that's not enough space for harmonized rabbits. I know that's standard size for cage breeders, but no where near the size for what is recommended for social setups. Yours are maturing fast and tolerating less, but if you had them in a bigger cage I'll bet you wouldn't have the same problems. Its all about SPACE. To me, a 2.5' x 2.5' cage is tiny, too tiny for four rabbits to feel like they have enough personal space. Maybe 2 rabbits-? I had my 2 American does in a 4' long x 2' wide cage, 2 stories, and was amazed they got along as well as they did - I thought that cage was too small for them to live socially - but they were fine. Happier with the 10ftx4ft of course! Once the colony pen was built, that cage now is just the night cage for 1 buck. Belgians require a lot of space, he wouldn't be able to be housed in a cage that small if I didn't let him out to roam every day.

We are talking about very young rabbits here...30x30 is plenty enough space for four six week olds...heck, a lot of breeders don't even wean until 8wks and they are in with the doe and their littermates till then...

I have mine in 30 x 36 cages and they don't really start fighting until 12wks or so. With my Cals, I can leave bucks together for at least a month longer before I have to separate them.

 

[WildWolf]

Stormy said "I have had to learn to keep the buck locked up (he's free-roaming) when I exercise the girls in their field pens - since nothing can stop those rabbits."

I keep reading that people let one or more (usually their buck) run free... How do you keep him from roaming too far? What's a big enough yard so that he doesn't wander off? I really like the idea of having free-roaming rabbits, but I think I don't have a big enough yard. Not to mention my garden...

 

[Stormy]

We are talking about very young rabbits here...30x30 is plenty enough space for four six week olds...heck, a lot of breeders don't even wean until 8wks and they are in with the doe and their littermates till then...

Yes I missed that they were 6 weeks old! That's pretty young... and kind of odd! At least with my experience. Maybe its a genetic temperament?<br /><br />__________ Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:28 am __________<br /><br />

Stormy said "I have had to learn to keep the buck locked up (he's free-roaming) when I exercise the girls in their field pens - since nothing can stop those rabbits."

I keep reading that people let one or more (usually their buck) run free... How do you keep him from roaming too far? What's a big enough yard so that he doesn't wander off? I really like the idea of having free-roaming rabbits, but I think I don't have a big enough yard. Not to mention my garden...

Hi Wildwolf - well, you don't make sure he doesn't roam too far. My buck has 2 acres to play on. While he cruises around - checks on the horses, hangs with the wild deer, investigates the alfalfa hay in the garage, and hangs out under the plum tree with my BF while he reads a book, sometimes popping into the house if the door is open, he never has yet left our property. Why would he need to? I don't think rabbits are endless roamers - he has everything he needs right here. Plus some good lookin' does and kits he wouldn't want to stray too far from.

My buck was a box-trained housepest before he decided he really wanted to be with the does all time, plus got a little obnoxious in the house harassing cats. So put up a large cage outside on the ground (he's a Belgian, needs lots of room) next to the colony pen, where he can be a rabbit, flirt with the girls, do his mating dance where he pees all over. (argh) (he used to be so handsome) By day I just open his cage and let him out. 9 times out of 10 he puts himself to bed at dark and we just close the cage. There are foxes, coyotes, owls, hawks, bobcats, and rumor has it, mountain lions, so we try to make sure everyone is locked up by nightfall - and I don't let him out too early when the bobcats are out unless I'm hanging outside with them.

Jack being a Belgian is very fast and goes into "wild mode" if startled, he's just closer to his wild roots. So I don't worry too much if I'm gone for a couple hours, he seems to know how to run. However, if I'm going to be gone all day I don't let him out or the does/kits into their day pen just in case the unthinkable happened like a pack of marauding dogs. Although I suppose its a chance I take every time I step away just for an hour or two. We don't have too many neighborhood dogs but my landlady lost her entire hen house a few years ago to her neighbor's dogs. They've since moved, fortunately.

Hope this helps - I think it all comes back to temperament. I had a Rex buck when I was growing up who was just super mellow and I'd let him run for a couple weeks at a time in our large backyard. Unfortunately the family dog decided to play with him He was one of my best. So be careful - mostly about dogs!

 

[skysthelimit]

Yes I missed that they were 6 weeks old! That's pretty young... and kind of odd! At least with my experience. Maybe its a genetic temperament?

I do think so. This is a really rowdy bunch. I wouldn't put anyone together past 4 mos.

 

[WildWolf]

Thanks Stormy, that clears things up a bit!

 

[AnnClaire]

I would also like to chime in on introducing adult does together in a runout pen. As long as there is plenty of room, mine is 9'x7', and has a bit of hollow log where the does can lay down and actually not see each other, I find that they are fine after the dominance is settled. 2 of the 3 does are also still nursing 4 week old kits and I also put another 15 older kits (10 weeks) and a junior doe (4 months) in. Once in a while, I will find a new bite/scratch on one of the subordinate does, but even that is lessening. The bucks are another deal all together. I currently have a 4month junior buck running in the same pen with my senior buck, but both are English Angoras with their laid back personalities. I had to seperate the subordinate buck (who thought he should be dominate LOL) into a seperate section, and even hang a sheet to block the view of the dominate buck. Otherwise, the dominate buck would have the subordinate buck so wound up that he wasn't getting any chance to lay down and it is entirely too hot for that kind of behavior.

For me, it was all about giving the rabbits some relief from the high heat, and putting them in the runout pens where they can lay against the cool, damp ground and move around as they want has helped a LOT! I only have one helicopter ear going, and when the temps drop below 95, it comes back up on it's own.

I will say that when I started introducing the senior does together, I started out with the two that I knew would struggle for dominance. Surprisingly, the EA doe is dominate over the Satin doe that has such a snarky personality LOL The 3rd doe is the daughter of the SatinxEA buck and is slightly easier going than her dam, but not by much.

 

[Stormy]

I will say that when I started introducing the senior does together, I started out with the two that I knew would struggle for dominance.

Thanks for sharing, AnnClaire. Sounds like your does are very easy going that you can put seniors together! Really does seem like it depends on the rabbit personality... although I know from personal experience as well as reading posts on this forum, that one sign of trouble and the impulse is to separate them instead of letting them hash it out. I watched some pretty vicious-seeming boxing and fur pulling but in the end there is nothing but happy bunnies keeping each other company. They often flop down next to each other and groom each other - its not just "tolerating" each other. They genuinely seem to appreciate the social lifestyle.

 

[AnnClaire]

I don't know about "easy going" but they settled it amongst themselves without any major damage. It also took a few days for things to not be a snark-fest as soon as they were in the runout pen together. I also think it helps to have several does so the second-place has someone to "dominate" LOL And they will all groom each other, lay on top of each other, and groom the babies together

I also would not have hazarded my EA doe if she was going to the show tables. However, she is a brood doe, so any minor blemishes from fighting that might have happened would not have hindered her from producing show prospect kits.

I did seperate my 2 senior bucks when the EA buck had the younger buck on the ground, on his back, and was kicking hard enough to castrate him.

 

[WildWolf]

When you introduce, would it be better to get them used to the scent first? for example, i could put the new doe in the hutch for a day, while my 2 does are in the run, and then switch them for the 2nd day, and then let them be together. would that have any benefits from just putting them together in the first place? (by the way, the hutch and the run are connected, but the connection can be blocked)

 

[Stormy]

I did seperate my 2 senior bucks when the EA buck had the younger buck on the ground, on his back, and was kicking hard enough to castrate him.

Sh*t! That's bad. Yes I think that'd be a breakup for sure. I am still on the fence whether I'll introduce my year-old buck to a baby buck... although I may let them both just run around the property sans-confinement- 2 acres is plenty of room to have their own territories.<br /><br />__________ Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:31 pm __________<br /><br />

When you introduce, would it be better to get them used to the scent first? for example, i could put the new doe in the hutch for a day, while my 2 does are in the run, and then switch them for the 2nd day, and then let them be together. would that have any benefits from just putting them together in the first place? (by the way, the hutch and the run are connected, but the connection can be blocked)

Hey Wildwolf, I came across a lot of detail about this somewhere on this forum under Colonies I think. I'll see if I can find it and post. Might have been a link to an external website with all the info. In a nutshell, its advised to have the newcomer be in her own cage right next to the colony pen. They can get used to her first without her being an invader of their territory. I put my little doe in a cage for about 5 days before I introduced her to the other doe, and then put her initially into the much larger day pen so they'd have more room to figure things out. No longer a "stranger" they were able to hash it out without things getting ugly but for some fur-pulling over the course of a couple days. The little one actually gave the older doe a run for her money - believing she should be the dom! I honestly do not know which one is the dominant one out of the two of them. They have both rode each other prior to their first pregnancies, whenever they saw the buck! What teases! (and no, it didn't make "false pregnancies", at least not with my randy bunch)

 

[AnnClaire]

Yeah, other than the babies, the adults had been rotated through one cage for a couple of weeks and were familiar with each other's scent.

As for introducing a weanling to an adult buck, I would say go for it ... the younger one is too young to be seen as any sort of competition to the adult buck. That might not last for very long, depending on how strongly the younger buck wants to push it with the older one. My second senior buck (the one I had to seperate) just would not accept a subordinate position, but the junior buck seems content to be second fiddle to the EA buck for now. I am keeping a close eye on their behavior and they are getting along for now.

Another thing that I do is to put the junior buck in the pen first, then put the senior buck in. However, with the does, I put the senior doe in first so that she greets the subordinate does. I don't know if that really makes a difference, but I hope it is supporting the senior doe's seniority.

It didn't seem to work with the bucks, but I think a lot of that had to do with the second buck's attitude. He had been used as a stud once, and the does' cage is sharing a side with the buck's cage and the doe he bred was definitely making up to the dominate buck (annoying the dom doe!) and the subordinate buck which definitely caused the friction between the two bucks LOL

We'll see how things go this week as I also saw the dom doe riding some of the 11-week old kits today. 3 or 4 of the largest ones. I'll have to check the sex of those to see if it is time to seperate the bucks.

 

[WildWolf]

I need to build another cage (I was planning on it anyway) before I get another doe, then.
My sub doe has had 2 false pregnancies- one when they first met, and another that I have no clue why it happened (maybe the dom doe was in heat or something?) I don't breed now, but I really want to on a small scale.