Bringing the Red out of the Agoutis

[EnglishSpot]

These two are full siblings, 1/2 NZR and 1/2 self black Mini Rex. (there were 4 blacks and 5 agoutis in their litter)
Fiona: Aa B_ C_ Du_ enen L_ mm P_ R_ S_ Si_ VV ww (THANKS DOOD!!)Fiona was a pedigreed NZR from a breeder who specialized in red, so her color history is solid
Trooper: aa B_ C_ D_ E_ enen L_ mm P_ rr S_ Si_ VV W_ Trooper is also a pedigreed MR, and he comes from a family of brokens and solids. When bred with my does, they consistently threw 50% blacks.

Timber has very little black in his undercoat, and he's mostly yellow when you blow on him. Aa B_ C_ __ enen w_ Rr
Evelyn's hairshafts are black 3/4 of the way up and then turn into agouti brown. When you blow on her, she shows black. Aa B_ C_ __ enen w_ Rr

How many generations of breeding do you think it will take to bring a nice red back into these lines? (None, I know now, LOL trying-to-improve-some-new-zealand-reds-t23977.html) I'm looking to breed up 5-7lb rabbits and I love the red coloration. I know I have to keep back any red babies and breed back, but should I keep back the yellow'd agouti reds for rebreeding? And should I rebreed back to Timber since he's carrying the visable coat color?

I'm reading through the genetics sections here on RT since it's the most reader friendly site, so I may come back and modify this opening paragraph several times.

post229171.html#p229171

Thanks for letting me know about Trooper's W, Dood --11:05am

 

[Susie570]

I think Timber's face is super cute

 

[Dood]

Trooper is probably not wideband so would be W_

Are you aiming for reds (A_ ee ww) or high Rufus chestnuts (A_ E_ W_ +++++)?

 

[alforddm]

Both of these are high rufus chestnuts without wideband aren't they?

 

[EnglishSpot]

@Dood: What a great question!! My sad answer is, I don't know, and I don't think "a nice red" is sufficient enough of an answer. I'm still reading and learning. I'm not looking for a nice auburn color, but I'm not going for carroty orange either. Which am I likely to get with the genes I've got?

From the reading I'm doing here on RT, I think the key of going for "a nice red" would to keep back and breed any pleasant looking reds types that would come from Timber and Evelyn, and eat the rest. I'm worried that Evelyn's darker hair shaft color may overpower Timber's inherited yellows. Granted, with both of them coming from a self father, I'm going to end up with blacks 50% of the time in their litters. From the reading I've done, breeding a red to a self black was probably the best of my sins!

@Alforddm: What is a "high rufus chestnut without wideband" and is that a good thing in red descendants?

 

[alforddm]

@Alforddm: What is a "high rufus chestnut without wideband" and is that a good thing in red descendants?

Well from what I understand (take this with a grain of salt I'm still learning rabbits), red are nonextension (ee) and agouti (A). The really good ones will also have wideband (ww) which decreases the agouti markings making the rabbit appear self or nearly self red. They also want "high rufus" which makes the red darker or richer in appearance.

Now there are "reds" that are high rufus chestnuts with wideband. For example the red hares are this color. It can look very similar to the non-extension reds in other breeds.

 

[Dood]

A Belgian hares colour is agouti, full extension, wideband and Rufus = A_ E_ ww ++++ (Sandy Flemish are the same but without a much Rufus)

Thriantra and red NZ are agouti, non extension, wideband and Rufus = A_ ee ww ++++

Copper satins are agouti, full extension, not wideband and Rufus = A_ E_ W_ ++++ genetically this is the colour these kits are but not Rufus enough and lack the agouti ticking pattern of a copper satin and of course the satin sheen

You could get all 3 colours when you breed these siblings togeather

 

[Zass]

Hey Dood.
While your attention is on red, I'd like to ask about wideband and japanese harlequins. It seems like the presence of wideband would really improve the red portion of the markings, but it's not listed as a gene they should be carrying on websites. I've seen lots of pics of japs, some that appear to have the gene, and some that do not.

Is it something I should be looking for for if I wanted rabbits to start a jap line?

 

[Dood]

I think it would be desirable in harlequins and tri's but wideband will make torted/self based harlies harder to pick out since it extends the red pigment band and crowds out the black and cream even in torts - think about the different looks between tan and otter, genetically they are the same except the former is wideband the latter is not

 

[EnglishSpot]

A Belgian hares colour is agouti, full extension, wideband and Rufus = A_ E_ ww ++++ (Sandy Flemish are the same but without a much Rufus)

Thriantra and red NZ are agouti, non extension, wideband and Rufus = A_ ee ww ++++

Copper satins are agouti, full extension, not wideband and Rufus = A_ E_ W_ ++++ genetically this is the colour these kits are but not Rufus enough and lack the agouti ticking pattern of a copper satin and of course the satin sheen

You could get all 3 colours when you breed these siblings togeather

Wow, I think I hit a jackpot of potential red types?!? When you say they're "not Rufus enough", does that refer to their overall red color or the red masking on the face, feet, shoulders, etc? So, they're like a + instead of a ++++?

 

[Dood]

But with such subtle differences will you be able to tell them apart that is the question

and also why these colours are not showable in most breeds

And yes, they are not ++++ Rufus but keeping back the best reds and possibly outcrossing to a rich red NZred or thriantra or copper can help speed up the process

 

[aussiegirl]

I have accuired two Thrianta does for a breeding program to improve the breed (as they have a little black ticking in their coats barely noticeable but still there- so I have to try breed that out if possible) and I was also asked to try and create our own version of the New Zealand Red, as we don't have any NZR here in Australia.

I was also given a buck but unfortunately lost him and a VERY heavily pregnant NZW doe (due in two days time) during a really bad heat wave that lasted a few days around 40 degrees c the nights were quite hot as well.
All the rabbits kindled during the night, I was constantly checking on them until 3am but EVERY doe had there litter on the wire and were born dead.
133 kits were born that night and I only saved 21 which were also born on the wire floor.

Anyhow, sorry I went a bit off topic.
I have been breeding the Thrianta's to my New Zealand White bucks as I thought that might be the safest choice until I got my head around the genetics part (because I Don't want to ruin the Thrianta), they seem to be throwing 1/2 red and 1/2 Agouti ? colored kits.
I don't think any of my other bucks would be suitable as they are either Californian, Chinchilla.

Should I keep a male kit with the best Red coloring and breed back to either his mother or the other Thrianta (his aunt). How do I incorporate this into my New Zealand lines while keeping the color?

Is this possible using the Thrianta?

 

[Dood]

NZReds and Thriantra are homozygous for two recessive genes - non extension and wideband and I am pleasantly surprised your NZW are producing red kits and not just chestnut, steel, fawns or blacks

I would not cross any of these back to the Thriantra but would use them to develop the Red NZ, keeping the biggest and best reds and building up and eventually try and breed out the recessive REW gene

 

[twr]

the red masking on the face, feet, shoulders, etc

I've been meaning to ask about that. I've seen pictures of that same pattern in harlequins (without the agouti ticking over the top, obviously) and been told that the pattern evens out with age, leaving an all-over high rufous. Does anyone here have experience of this, or opinions as to what might cause it? For example it might be:

• Part of the normal agouti pattern, just more visible due to high rufous.
• An independent modifier, which again is made more visible by high rufous.
• A property of all rufous modifiers, presumably an unavoidable side effect of the biology that creates the high rufous colour. (This one seems unlikely).
• A characteristic of just one (or a few) specific rufous modifiers that could therefore help determine if crossing two high rufous rabbits is likely to lead to even higher rufous or just more of the same.
• Something I've not thought of.

 

[aussiegirl]

NZReds and Thriantra are homozygous for two recessive genes - non extension and wideband and I am pleasantly surprised your NZW are producing red kits and not just chestnut, steel, fawns or blacks

I would not cross any of these back to the Thriantra but would use them to develop the Red NZ, keeping the biggest and best reds and building up and eventually try and breed out the recessive REW gene

Hi Dood,

So when you stated NOT to cross any of the red kits back to the Thrianta, do I pick the BEST red kits and breed them to my New Zealand Whites instead. The kits at that stage would already be Thrianta x NZW, should I retain a MALE or FEMALE kit or 1 of each to breed back to the New Zealand Whites I have both NZW does & bucks.

I hope this doesn't confuse anyone,

I will try post some pictures of my two Thrianta does and one of the litters (sired by a NZW buck), and also a red female I kept from a previous litter also sired by the same buck (currently 9 weeks old), just so you know what I am working with.

 

[Dood]

Id keep breeding the Thriantra to the NZWhites and picking out the biggest and best reds, male or female, for your NZRed project

Cross these Th x NZW to the NZW to increase size and again keep the biggest and best reds, crossing back to Thiantra when the Rufus starts to fade out

I would never add NZRed or white genes to your purebred Thriantra line UNLESS you eliminate all undesirable recessives AND your NZReds develop the same rich red colour AND you must increase the purebred T's size or improve a production quality like litter size or milk production

 

[aussiegirl]

Thank's Dood I understand what your saying, now that you helped me work out a game plan to create our own New Zealand Red (highly sought after but not available in Australia - I feel the Thrianta is our best chance). Really looking forward to this project.

I will definitely keep you posted on any progress as I will probably need your expertise again on the quality of the kits to keep (like if they have the right shade of red or are getting too light or orange).

I still have to take the pictures of the Thriantas and litter like promised.
hopefully in the next few days
(you might notice something that I need to work on)

Many thanks Pam.

 

[EnglishSpot]

Here's my new red herd sire, Wheatley. He's 10 weeks old. His sire is a nice rich red and quite solid too, so I am pleased to have gotten him. He'll redden things right up!!

 

[alforddm]

He is soooo pretty! Congratz!

 

[EnglishSpot]

So, it turns out Evelyn, the daughter I kept from Fiona, is actually a male. I called my sister and asked her to keep an agouti female from the bunch I sent to her last month. She said she would and looks forward to my next visit, which may be sooner than either of us thought!!!