Breeding woes...

[Stormy & Hurricane]

Okay, hello, all! I am new here and new to rabbits, that said I have done my 'homework'. So, I would love if you could provide me some insight because obviously book knowledge is different than experience.
New silver fox buck, new silver fox doe, both old enough to breed.
Breed trial one- she wouldn't lift, he tried his best, got what looked to be one fall off. Tried later that day, no luck, tried that evening- grumpy doe wanted nothing to do with him. I thought that was at least a bit positive.
We were going on holidays and had a house sitter, so I gave the nesting box a bit early day 20ish and she got to work right away. She made her nest, was eating a ton, pulling hair, everything looked promising. I did not palpate her at all. Day 31, more fur pulling, Day 32...33...34...35. Felt her belly and didn't feel anything. I left her nest box, but tried to breed her again (vent was red). One fall off pretty quick and then: chasing, attempts, her mounting (so she should have been willing), but no more fall offs, tried 3 more times throughout that day, same story but with no fall offs. Tried the next morning to see how she'd act- grumpy, grunting, so, I guess I will just wait until day 14ish and try palpate...?
Any insight from those of you who know what you are doing?
Thanks!!!!

 

[Heartbased Homestead]

This was almost my exact experience with my previously unproven doe. I really thought she should've been pregnant, and I was palpitating! Made a nest multiple times and everything. Every meeting with the buck, she very very grumpy, grumble, but also mounted him. It should've worked. But nothing for 3 months, never witnessed a single fall off... yet on the 4th hottest month, she had her first litter without my ever seeing signs she was even pregnant! My theory is that if it's a new set up/breeding stock, they just have to get comfy, a pregnancy will eventually take.

 

[Stormy & Hurricane]

This was almost my exact experience with my previously unproven doe. I really thought she should've been pregnant, and I was palpitating! Made a nest multiple times and everything. Every meeting with the buck, she very very grumpy, grumble, but also mounted him. It should've worked. But nothing for 3 months, never witnessed a single fall off... yet on the 4th hottest month, she had her first litter without my ever seeing signs she was even pregnant! My theory is that if it's a new set up/breeding stock, they just have to get comfy, a pregnancy will eventually take.

Thanks, I will continue to impatiently, patiently wait

 

[eco2pia]

young new stock does indeed take a minute to settle in. they will get there!

 

[Cotton Rabbitry]

Personally never had a problem with my does, young or old. It was the older bucks I had a problem with. But must agree, Once they settle into a new environment, Bam babies.

 

[Heartbased Homestead]

older bucks I had a problem with

True. This was the difference between my doe's first and second litters. The first was sired by an older buck (he was greying) and it took 4 months, this newest litter was sired by a young buck and it took immediately. It could've been the doe's newfound comfortability after 4mo that made the back-to-back pregnancies possible, but you bring up a good point about paternal age.

There's even a lot of "propaganda" out there - in human fertility discussions - about maternal age being an issue, but what's not discussed is that paternal age has almost the same genetic and fertility issues if not more. I know very little about this (as usual) but I've heard that since the mother carries two copies of the X, the father's genes is where majority of corruptions occur.

 

[ladysown]

and then I had an old buck who sired his last litter three months before he passed. at least 13 years old, big old meat rabbit. Wonderful litter.

 

[kusanar314]

True. This was the difference between my doe's first and second litters. The first was sired by an older buck (he was greying) and it took 4 months, this newest litter was sired by a young buck and it took immediately. It could've been the doe's newfound comfortability after 4mo that made the back-to-back pregnancies possible, but you bring up a good point about paternal age.

There's even a lot of "propaganda" out there - in human fertility discussions - about maternal age being an issue, but what's not discussed is that paternal age has almost the same genetic and fertility issues if not more. I know very little about this (as usual) but I've heard that since the mother carries two copies of the X, the father's genes is where majority of corruptions occur.

Actually, no.

Women are born with all of their eggs, in fact, my mother actually produced the eggs that would spawn any children I had (if I got insane enough to do that) and I would produce the eggs that my (theoretical) daughter would have. Those eggs are getting older and older as time goes on and eventually start breaking down.

Men produce sperm continuously and they are only ever (I believe) a week old at any given time because they are constantly being produced, dying and being re-absorbed (assuming they stay with the man...) so there are always "fresh" sperm in the mix and damaged or old sperm aren't likely to outcompete the newer ones to get to the egg.

That's why men are fertile and having viable kids pretty much until death when women really shouldn't be producing past 35-40 because at that point there has been enough degradation of the eggs to start causing problems with the kids.

 

[Heartbased Homestead]

Actually, no.

I can tell you don't like me. But that's a mid reason to be throwing around old myths without sources, on an obviously not researched subject which you couldn't care less about.

It is a dangerous misconception which harms women and children, the myth that men retain full fertility into old age, starkly contrasting with the abrupt cessation of fertility seen in women at menopause. Abundant evidence shows that, in men, sperm numbers and quality decline with increasing age. Moreover, it has recently emerged that mutations accumulate about four times faster in sperm than in eggs, so semen from old men is actually risk-laden.

​

The older the dad, the uglier the children: Genetic mutation research confirms

Please stop telling this fairy tale:

‘scientific fairy tale’ – a picture of egg and sperm that suggests that ‘female biological processes are less worthy than their male counter-parts’ and that ‘women are less worthy than men’. The ovary, for instance, is depicted with a limited stock of starter eggs depleted over a lifetime whereas the testes are said to produce new sperm throughout life. Human egg production is commonly described as ‘wasteful’ because, from 300,000 egg starter cells present at puberty, only 400 mature eggs will ever be released; yet that adjective is rarely used to describe a man’s lifetime production of more than 2 trillion sperm. Whether in the popular or scientific press, human mating is commonly portrayed as a gigantic marathon swimming event in which the fastest, fittest sperm wins the prize of fertilising the egg. If this narrative was just a prejudicial holdover from our sexist past – an offensive male fantasy based on incorrect science – that would be bad enough, but continued buy-in to biased information impedes crucial fertility treatments for men and women alike.

 

[kusanar314]

I can tell you don't like me. But that's a mid reason to be throwing around old myths without sources, on an obviously not researched subject which you couldn't care less about.

It is a dangerous misconception which harms women and children, the myth that men retain full fertility into old age, starkly contrasting with the abrupt cessation of fertility seen in women at menopause. Abundant evidence shows that, in men, sperm numbers and quality decline with increasing age. Moreover, it has recently emerged that mutations accumulate about four times faster in sperm than in eggs, so semen from old men is actually risk-laden.

​

The older the dad, the uglier the children: Genetic mutation research confirms

Please stop telling this fairy tale:

‘scientific fairy tale’ – a picture of egg and sperm that suggests that ‘female biological processes are less worthy than their male counter-parts’ and that ‘women are less worthy than men’. The ovary, for instance, is depicted with a limited stock of starter eggs depleted over a lifetime whereas the testes are said to produce new sperm throughout life. Human egg production is commonly described as ‘wasteful’ because, from 300,000 egg starter cells present at puberty, only 400 mature eggs will ever be released; yet that adjective is rarely used to describe a man’s lifetime production of more than 2 trillion sperm. Whether in the popular or scientific press, human mating is commonly portrayed as a gigantic marathon swimming event in which the fastest, fittest sperm wins the prize of fertilising the egg. If this narrative was just a prejudicial holdover from our sexist past – an offensive male fantasy based on incorrect science – that would be bad enough, but continued buy-in to biased information impedes crucial fertility treatments for men and women alike.

I'm not sure where all of the rest of this ramble came from, but things like Downs Syndrome are directly related to the age of the mother and have nothing to do with the age of the father.

I don't see anywhere that you disproved me. Or where you have even shared your anecdotal evidence for things, only said you had it.

And I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but I don't "like" anyone on this site. I don't KNOW anyone on this site and therefore don't like them. I don't DISLIKE people on this site however. I do shake my head at you when you treat "evidence" that you have never shown or even told us a story about as fact and expect us to believe you when what you are saying goes at least at a 45 degree angle from anything science has said.

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

How did this go from rabbit breeding to human breeding and sexism (I think)...

 

[eco2pia]

Ok, let's take a breath and remember 2 things:

1. we are here to talk about rabbits.
2. text based communication lacks tone and inflection.

Please be respectful and please assume no ill intent in posts from other members.

This thread will now return to the original topic, or I will lock it.

 

[Heartbased Homestead]

It's OK to not like people, it's even respectable! Thanks for your input. We could all use practice in disagreeing and standing up for our beliefs amicably. Thanks for helping me learn too.

I'll take the responsibility here too, people are just reacting understandably.

 

[Cotton Rabbitry]

How did this go from rabbit breeding to human breeding and sexism (I think)...

I think I may have caused it. Sorry! Being an older mother of a single child that is perfectly healthy. I would have to say I wished I had, had her younger, but I also am not looking a gift rabbit in the mouth. I know of plenty of older women that have had perfectly healthy children (Abit spoiled mind you, But Healthy) Not saying there isn't risks, as obviously there is, but in this day an age of science and medicine. I say let the children be loved no matter what their healthy, that is us adults included.

 

[Stormy & Hurricane]

To update:
Tried to breed, thought maybe one fall off, built a nest (early, but kept maintaining it)= phantom pregnancy
Rebred, started digging in her run on day 3 so I just gave her the original nesting box back and she was content- worried it was another false pregnancy. Palpated at 14 days and thought I felt two lumpy grapes so I was hopeful. She gained more than her first time around. Left her nest alone, and day 31 went by... day 32 morning- nothing, but when I checked a few hours later, 6 little poppers were squirming around in her box covered with fur!
Hopefully this first time mama does well!

 

[kusanar314]

To update:
Tried to breed, thought maybe one fall off, built a nest (early, but kept maintaining it)= phantom pregnancy
Rebred, started digging in her run on day 3 so I just gave her the original nesting box back and she was content- worried it was another false pregnancy. Palpated at 14 days and thought I felt two lumpy grapes so I was hopeful. She gained more than her first time around. Left her nest alone, and day 31 went by... day 32 morning- nothing, but when I checked a few hours later, 6 little poppers were squirming around in her box covered with fur!
Hopefully this first time mama does well!
View attachment 37087

Congrats on the new arrivals!