I know that Holland Lop Harlequins are not showable but I love the color anyway. I am wondering if there are any rules with breeding for this pattern/color. I have a Harlequin Buck and will be getting a Harlequin doe soon. Is there anything wrong with breeding the two together or is that a no no. I would like to have kits from these two but not if this is not allowed. I am trying to learn what I can about genetics. So please if anyone has any positive advice let me know. Thank you
Breeding Holland Lops
- Thread starter Clhc07
- Start date
Help Support Rabbit Talk Forum:
As long as you don't want to show the offspring.... go for it!
I breed Magpie Harlequin Rabbits and LOVE the pattern/colour.... so I don't see why you shouldn't do that with your Holland Lops.
I breed Magpie Harlequin Rabbits and LOVE the pattern/colour.... so I don't see why you shouldn't do that with your Holland Lops.
Thank you for your response. I was not sure if I breed the two together if it would mess up the pattern or cause color to be smutty? They will be for pet only. Also do you know if you can breed magpie lionhead to harlequin lionhead? I love the colors too!
SableSteel
Well-known member
Breeding harlequin to harlequin is probably the best way to clean up the color. Then you can selectively breed for defined markings. Magpie lionhead to harlequin lionhead will probably get you mostly harlequin. Harlequin is dominant over magpie
I would love to produce magpie lionhead kits. I have a magpie doe and she is a great momma. I have bred her to my sable point buck and the kits turned out to be REW and Sable points. So, I bred her to my Blue point buck and got adorable vm kits but no magpies. Could you please tell me what buck would produce magpie offspring? I was thinking about getting a BEW buck. Do you think this will work?SarniaTricia":e9n3tc2p said:As long as you don't want to show the offspring.... go for it!
I breed Magpie Harlequin Rabbits and LOVE the pattern/colour.... so I don't see why you shouldn't do that with your Holland Lops.
SableSteel
Well-known member
Kinipela":3iajq99e said:
Broken frosty is frosty and white, with rounded edges to the markings. Magpie is frosty and black, with straight edges to the markings (and some brindling)
Unless one of your other rabbits carries chocolate, you won't get chocolate anything in the first generation. The ideal would be to breed him with another chocolate magpie. Second best would be a chocolate harlequin, or a black magpie. Unfortunately, unless there are hidden alleles at certain loci, none of the varieties you already have will be likely to make chocolate magpies in the first generation, but the tri and chinchilla are good bets to get chocolate magpies in the second generation, especially if you breed certain of their offspring together. I'd avoid the tort since she has two different recessive alleles that will make it harder to get a proper magpie in any color.
That's the short answer. If you're inclined to think about the genetics behind this...
There are alleles (different forms of genes) at four key loci (places on the gemone) needed to get chocolate magpie: agouti <A_>, chocolate <bb>, chinchilla <c(chd)_>, and harlequin <e(j)_>. A chocolate magpie is: <A_ bb c(chd)_ D_ e(j)_>.
So, because a tricolor is a broken harlequin, you know she has the necessary components of agouti <A_> and harlequin <e(j)>. Depending on what the tricolor carries behind her dominant genes, there is a chance you could get chocolate magpies with her. A magpie is a chinchilla harlequin. Assuming your tri doe is black-based (black, orange and white), from breeding her to a choc magpie you'd expect to get more tricolors, and black/orange harlequins (plus other colors, both solid and broken, depending on what recessives she carries). If the tricolor doe happens to carry hidden chocolate <b> you might get chocolate harlequins, and if she happens to carry a chinchilla <c(chd)>allele, you might get magpies, and if she happens to carry both, you'll see chocolate harlequins. Unfortunately, you might also get broken magpies (black and/or chocolate), which are tricky because you don't necessarily know that's what they are - both chinchilla and broken alleles produce patches of white, and although they tend to produce white areas in different patterns, when you put them on the same rabbit it gets difficult to identify with certainty whether it's one or both of them.
Likewise, the chinchilla doe also has two of the four necessary alleles, the agouti <A> and chinchilla <c(chd)>. Bred with the chocolate magpie, you'd expect to get solid chinchillas and black magpies, again with other colors depending on her recessives. (If by chance she is homozygous for full extension <EE>, you would probably not get magpies as <E> generally overpowers <e(j)>). If she happens to carry chocolate <b> behind her black <B> and a hidden <e(j)> or <e>, it's possible she could produce chocolate magpies with the buck.
Chocolate <b> is recessive to black <B_>, so a rabbit needs two copies to appear chocolate. One of your does might carry chocolate, in which case that's the one to breed him with to set chocolate as your base color. Once you get chocolates, you'll never get another black unless you introduce it by breeding to a black-based rabbit (black can't hide).
Chinchilla <c(chd)> prevents expression of most or all orange/yellow pigments. It is a medium-level recessive allele, meaning it's recessive to full-color <C> but dominant or partially dominant to some other alleles (sable/shaded <c(chl)>, himalayan <c(h)> and REW <c>). It can easily hide, so if you see chinchillas, magpies or ermines in a rabbit's pedigree, there is a decent chance the rabbit might carry it. Because it's in the middle, it's not as easy to set as chocolate; once you get chinchillas you can still have one of the lower-ranking alleles pop up (but you won't get full-color).
Harlequin <e(j)> is a trickier gene since it needs "help" expressing itself properly, but it can show up in weird ways if it doesn't have the ideal help. A proper harlequin is an agouti <A_>, so self-colored rabbits (which are all recessive <aa>) or otters (which are <a(t)a(t)> or <a(t)a>) are not helpful. You only need one copy of agouti <A> though, and both your tri and chinchilla does have at least one copy.
The tort doe, assuming she's a black tort, is a much longer shot, since she'd have to carry all four hidden alleles (and harlequin doesn't tend to hide very well, so if she's a correct tort, you can feel fairly certain that's not lurking - though it is possible). She will also give all of her bunnies recessive self and non-extension alleles, which will mess up your harlequins and magpies down the road.
Last edited:
Thanks! That was all very helpful! I am just getting into rabbit genetics. My tris pedigree is all tris. The very last generation has one chocolate tri. Dose this mean she will for sure have chocolates. And how likely is it she can have magpies? Also on a pedigree what dose We mean?
The chocolate tri in the last generation (I'm assuming you mean the rabbit's great-grandparent) means there's a chance that your rabbit carries it; you'll need a test breeding to know for sure, which you'll achieve by breeding her to your choc magpie buck. The only way you'd know for sure right now that she carries chocolate is if one of her parents was chocolate - that parent would only have chocolate to give to its bunnies. By the same token, every kit out of your choc magpie buck will carry a copy of the chocolate allele <b>.
If she's a normal tri, she'll be full color <C_. > The chance that she can produce magpies depends on what she carries the second place on her C locus. If she carries chinchilla <c(chd)>, sable/shaded <c(chl)>, himalayan <c(h)>, or REW <c>, she could produce magpies with your buck. The only thing that would keep her from producing magpies would be two copies of the full-color <C>.
All tris on a pedigree is a little iffy, in my mind, given that tri x tri will likely produce charlies <EnEn> which can have difficulties with a health condition called megacolon. When you breed two brokens <Enen> together, you'll get roughly 25% charlies. Not all charlies suffer from megacolon, but you have to watch carefully for this condition, which can show up well after the animal is an adult. It's a bummer.
Some tri breeders do breed tri x tri, so that they don't get solid harlequin sports, which are not showable in any breed (other than Harlequin, of course). But charlies are also usually unshowable since they have so little color. I almost never breed brokens together, since I'd rather have unshowable harlequins than raise (or sell) a rabbit that has a decent risk of ending up sick.
<WE> refers to the white ear gene, which has been around for a while in Europe but is just showing up in America, especially in Hollands. It's notated in capitals since it's dominant/partially dominant. A rabbit with a single copy of the dominant allele <WEwe> has all-white ears, white feet, and usually white markings on the nose/face as well; sometimes they look a bit like a dutch with white ears. Two copies puts even more white on the rabbit, often looking like lightly-marked broken (plus the white ears, of course, while brokens usually have color on the ears). In fact it's a lot like broken gene <En> but apparently without the megacolon risk in the homozgous <WEWE> state. As far as I know, any rabbit that has <WE> will have white ears - the gene cannot hide. Adding <WE> to a tri or broken line is usually a bad idea, since both of those latter two varieties are disqualified if they lack color on the ears and/or nose.
Last edited:
MsTemeraire
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2022
- Messages
- 233
- Reaction score
- 287
Is he actually chocolate? There are many sable magpies around labelled 'chocolate' which are in fact black-based. Magpies can be chin-based or shaded-based - and if you want the best contrast, you will need to use the chin gene, avoiding shaded.
While I know yours aren't showable, they are in other parts of the world and the basic rules where they're an accepted variety would include not having any Shaded in the lines (to avoid sable Magpies). The shaded gene changes the shade of black pigment, so black becomes sepia brown, chocolate becomes light golden brown, blue becomes a paler lilac-y colour, and lilac a very very pale grey. As with sables, if they carry REW or Himi, sable magpies will be paler than if they have two shaded genes.
The Chin gene doesn't appreciably alter the black, so chin based magpies are nicely contrasted black and white, blue and white, chocolate and white, and lilac and white.
Both Harlies and Magpies can be masking agouti, otter or self, and there's usually no way to determine which, except that if they are self based, aa, and also carry non-extension (orange/fawn/tort etc) they will most likely have some tort-style shading in the orange parts on ears, nose, feet, belly and tail. The shade of orange these have is also more like the fawn on a tort, than a clear orange. In Magpies, this presents as greyish frosty shading on the points. It's not a disaster to have torted Harlies or Mags - they are attractive in their own right - but for show it wouldn't be acceptable. It's fairly easy to breed out, as self-based aa Harlies and Mags that don't carry non-ext, i.e. which are e(j)e(j), don't have shading. It's as if one copy of the e(j) gene isn't quite enough to cover up or subdue the tort shading.
That's about it really for 'rules' and as mentioned, they only really apply where Harlie/Mag are accepted varieties in the breed. Otherwise, Sable Magpies are still fairly pretty with their more subtle colours, as are the torted ones with their sooty smudged fawn areas.
reh
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2020
- Messages
- 73
- Reaction score
- 85
I disagree with this. It's only true for heterozygous eJ e ones.
For true breeding eJeJ harlequins it doesn't matter, which A allele they have.
eJ create receptors which make dark color all the time in dark parts. In yellow parts there are no Extension receptors at all, so they can not interact with agouti signal protein.
Whereas in heterozygous rabbits the e Allele is making Extension receptors where agouti signal protein can work on.
In my line of tris i never had a single e so i never had any sort of torted and also no smut on ears/nose.
Hm, the few times I've had <aa> harlequins they were always weird, messy-looking torted harlies. I can't say for sure whether they were <e(j)e(j)> or<e(j)e> rabbits; maybe they were all the latter. As far as I know there was no non-extension <e> in the lines, but of course that can hide for a long time. I bow to your knowledge of the allele's effects on receptors, and will keep the caveat in mind. Thanks for the clarification.
Nonetheless, since the OP is dealing with at least one tort, it will likely become an issue (although some people like that shaded tort look); I guess I assumed she wanted show-quality, but maybe not.
Last edited:
MsTemeraire
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 1, 2022
- Messages
- 233
- Reaction score
- 287
In the study done in 2010 of the Japanese gene, the researchers found the Harlequin and Tri-Colour Dutch weren't fixed on the A locus, and tested as AA, Aa and aa. 32 Harlequins and 8 Tri-colour Dutch were tested, and 7 of the Tri-Colour Dutch were homozygous for aa, with one Aa.
(Note that the test for a(t) hadn't been developed at the time, so some of them may have been a(t)_ but showed as aa.)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3236303/
reh
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2020
- Messages
- 73
- Reaction score
- 85
If i remember correctly this Tri dutchs was from germany. There its not allowed to mix colors, so you have black tris with noting else.
So if you want nice tris/japanese without need to look at agouti or fuss with smut, keep them beeing eJeJ ;-)
So if you want nice tris/japanese without need to look at agouti or fuss with smut, keep them beeing eJeJ ;-)
reh
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2020
- Messages
- 73
- Reaction score
- 85
I think it may be these 8 similar looking rabbits (id 752 - 759)
http://rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entries/B_D_eJ_En-_du/1.html
maybe i should change there gene code.
http://rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entries/B_D_eJ_En-_du/1.html
maybe i should change there gene code.
