Breeding for good Chinchilla color

[Oceanrose]

Ok. I want to work on Chinchilla Satin Angoras a bit. I know I need to keep chestnut, and coppers out of the line to avoid the brownish cast. But I am confusing about what colors I should breed.

I should add here, right now, I have a chin buck with clear color, a choc chin doe, and a squirrel doe. Colors on all 3 pedigrees are a mishmash.

I had always thought all solids went, but I am reading you're better off to breed REW to Chin? I have a REW buck who is most likely genetically chocolate, and 2 REW does, one is probably out as she is sired by a red. The other has Chocolate, REW and Black. Am I on the right track here?

 

[Dood]

Chinchilla is an agouti with a dark shaded gene on the C-locus.

You can breed them to REW or Himilayan (Cali) since these two colours are also due to genes on the C-locus and they are recessive to the dark shaded gene hence you are guaranteed chinchilla kits.

Since you have chinchillas already I would not out cross unless necessary.

I would breed the buck with the squirrel (which is a blue chinchilla) You could also breed to the chocolate chin, I don't know if one gene would affect colour but if you kept a kit and bred her back to the buck only some would have the chocolate gene.

 

[skysthelimit]

I agree.

The REW would be out in that case. Chin is fine with solids but you mess up the solids down the line. They will throw weird colors later on. I would stick with the choco chin and squirrel, as they are all chins to begin.

 

[Oceanrose]

Hmm, the REW would improve type faster, my REW buck is MUCH nicer than my Chin... But I can be really selective in what I keep. So chin/chin, no solids. I really want to improve the chin color in this breed, the brownish cast is really common.

 

[mwtrees]

I think you understand this, but for others reading.. REW is NOT a solid. It can be. It is a colored rabbit in a white paper bag. It can be black, blue, chocolate, agouti, orange tri-color or most any color. The only colors it cannot be are those that are also influenced by the c series alleles. That would include himi/cal and the shaded colors as smoke pearls and siamese and sable points.

The brownish cast is common because of the way the melanin (yellow color) works in genetics. A chin still carries some melanin. Carrying rew can sometimes wash out the color (sable chin, not genetically sable but in phenotype)

 

[skysthelimit]

I think you understand this, but for others reading.. REW is NOT a solid. It can be. It is a colored rabbit in a white paper bag. It can be black, blue, chocolate, agouti, orange tri-color or most any color. The only colors it cannot be are those that are also influenced by the c series alleles. That would include himi/cal and the shaded colors as smoke pearls and siamese and sable points.

The brownish cast is common because of the way the melanin (yellow color) works in genetics. A chin still carries some melanin. Carrying rew can sometimes wash out the color (sable chin, not genetically sable but in phenotype)

That's why I recommend no REW. I've been there, done that, culled the whole litter of chins. Mystery REw is still carrying a color gene you may not want in your chins.

 

[Oceanrose]

I think you understand this, but for others reading.. REW is NOT a solid. It can be. It is a colored rabbit in a white paper bag. It can be black, blue, chocolate, agouti, orange tri-color or most any color. The only colors it cannot be are those that are also influenced by the c series alleles. That would include himi/cal and the shaded colors as smoke pearls and siamese and sable points.

The brownish cast is common because of the way the melanin (yellow color) works in genetics. A chin still carries some melanin. Carrying rew can sometimes wash out the color (sable chin, not genetically sable but in phenotype)

Yup, I always tell people they are a rabbit in a Halloween costume, you don't know what is underneath. In my buck's case, it's especially questionable, as he has almost a completely REW pedigree. My guess is chocolate, but if he produces agouti with either of the black does I bred to him, then I was wrong .

I am going to keep the chin-chin, or chin-squirrel as much as possible, while still working on type. I am actively looking for a chin with better shoulders, though the chocolate chin I have is very nice.

 

[eco2pia]

Sorry for the thread resurrection, but I am struggling to match my chin phenotypes to genotypes here...I have a normal chin buck and doe, with no yellow tones, I have a chocolate chin mutt doe, who may also carry dilute (she has light "milk chocolate" eyes). For this question she is not involved...

I have had my first litter between the "normal" chin parents...some have grey blue eyes. Some have a "tan" cape (like a Tan rabbit) showing thru the chinchilla coloring? So in that area they are almost a light yellow and black agouti color, but the rest of them look like a normal chin color. Sorry the pics are not great but hopefully you can see what I mean? The second one shows the "tan" shaped cape pattern outlined in red. Does anyone know what will cause that yellow to show up in that pattern on a chin from 2 normal chin parents with dark eyes? it must be a bunch of recessives, but which ones?

I didn't think it could be at-chdchd? But could it? I thought to express the chin ticking you had to have A-chd-, and that would suppress the at? and how would the ee be expressed here? That would give really light chins, or frosties, I think....so I don't think it is involved.

 

[eco2pia]

Answering my own question, maaaybe. So I have found on the internets, that the blue eyes go with the chinchilla gene, and then I found this....

Chinchilla - A? B? cchd? D? E?r-2? Sasa Ll - Rabbitcolors which seems to indicate this brown tinge will "go away" in adults? I am still not clear on what is genetically happening to cause it in half the litter.

 

[Zee-Man]

Not that it adds to the conversation much, but I have been looking for a chinchilla buck near Delaware for a while. I need to breed Dosidoe before she gets too old. Since I am not too concerned about coat color, what other breeds would be good for her, in terms of meat production?

 

[eco2pia]

Not that it adds to the conversation much, but I have been looking for a chinchilla buck near Delaware for a while. I need to breed Dosidoe before she gets too old. Since I am not too concerned about coat color, what other breeds would be good for her, in terms of meat production?

You could cross her on a NZ....I think that would be my recovery choice. And I think I would go for a black one, and get back to chin in about 2 generations. The C gene is dominant to the cchd gene, so your first litter would likely be black. But if you next breed mother-son, or sibling to sibling, you should start getting chins again.

Try to find a buck that doesn't carry REW, that's the main thing.

 

[eco2pia]

Update: the "cape wearing" kits did lose the tan. They are distinctly darker (blacker ticking and more of it) than the not-cape-wearing kits. I will try to get a picture in good light this weekend. maybe this is about the Cchd and Cchl interaction? but then...which is which? Gah, I just want to do pcr and check! I wonder if there are primers available...hahaha.

Edited to add:
No. No published PCR test readily available. Do let me know if you know of one however. However I found this exact thing described neatly in

"Comparative genetics of coat colour in mammals by Antony G. Searle"​

First printed in 1968.

Figured I would leave an excerpt of it here for future reference. I added notes in color. It looks like one of my parents are Cchd/Cchm, and the other is Cchd/Cchm or Cchd/C

 

[eco2pia]

Additionally, modern genetic sequencing of this gene locus has struggled to find all 3 chinchilla genes, but that study was flawed, with a too small sample size. I am annoyingly tenacious, so I will keep picking at this. If I find a published primer set I can actually DIY a PCR test--work perks! I have access to some really fun toys.

 

[judymac]

Robinson's book on rabbit genetics (Genetic Studies of the Rabbit, 1958) discusses this "brown back" on page 418: "The juvenile Chinchilla usually has traces of yellow pigment along the dorsal region and on the fore-head: "brown-back, or rusty-black", as it is termed. With each successive moult to the adult coat, the amount of brown back exhibited slowly diminishes. Now if the brown back is not completely removed from the adult coat, the top appears dull, with a greyish tinge if much remains. . .Brown back is an inherited character and the various degrees of it which can be seen among litters of baby Chinchillas are due to the presence or absence of polygenes. The rate of loss of brown back accompanying succeeding moults is doubtless due to genetic influenes." The book can be found at Rabbitcolors - Literature

I had my first "brown-back" chinchilla English Angora this year.


The left kit is a black chinchilla, the front right a chocolate chin, but the top right kit ended up with that odd brown tint over the black chin pattern.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

Update: the "cape wearing" kits did lose the tan. They are distinctly darker (blacker ticking and more of it) than the not-cape-wearing kits. I will try to get a picture in good light this weekend. maybe this is about the Cchd and Cchl interaction? but then...which is which? Gah, I just want to do pcr and check! I wonder if there are primers available...hahaha.

Edited to add:
No. No published PCR test readily available. Do let me know if you know of one however. However I found this exact thing described neatly in

"Comparative genetics of coat colour in mammals by Antony G. Searle"​

First printed in 1968.

Figured I would leave an excerpt of it here for future reference. I added notes in color. It looks like one of my parents are Cchd/Cchm, and the other is Cchd/Cchm or Cchd/C
View attachment 28457

Did your annoying tenacity pay off? I have a magpie project so this is super relevant to my color goals. Never heard of medium chinchilla though, do you have any other references?

 

[eco2pia]

Did your annoying tenacity pay off? I have a magpie project so this is super relevant to my color goals. Never heard of medium chinchilla though, do you have any other references?

I was less tenacious than advertised. I also have not heard of "medium chinchilla" outside of this reference. I think, looking at their chart, that they are likely describing some interaction of a combination of genes that they do not fully understand at this early date?

I can say that further test crosses have given me the darkest chins with the cape, less common are the light chins without the cape, and then I also get REW out of the parents--this tells me that I have two with c,Cchd, or alternately one with c,Cchd and one with c,Cchl/m...however both parents express Cchd as near as I can tell. Which means, to me, that either I can not visually tell when an adult is the light version (not true, I can tell even in the tanned pelts) or there is some other thing going on, a modifier gene that controls the expression of the phaeomelanin. I meant to dig into that deeper, but I got side tracked by life!

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

I was less tenacious than advertised. I also have not heard of "medium chinchilla" outside of this reference. I think, looking at their chart, that they are likely describing some interaction of a combination of genes that they do not fully understand at this early date?

I can say that further test crosses have given me the darkest chins with the cape, less common are the light chins without the cape, and then I also get REW out of the parents--this tells me that I have two with c,Cchd, or alternately one with c,Cchd and one with c,Cchl/m...however both parents express Cchd as near as I can tell. Which means, to me, that either I can not visually tell when an adult is the light version (not true, I can tell even in the tanned pelts) or there is some other thing going on, a modifier gene that controls the expression of the phaeomelanin. I meant to dig into that deeper, but I got side tracked by life!

Lol no worries. I wonder if it's just a dilute or chocolate chin that they were referring to

 

[eco2pia]

Lol no worries. I wonder if it's just a dilute or chocolate chin that they were referring to

chocolate chin is not what I am referring to--they are chinchilla gray, but lighter, not because the dark parts are lighter but because there is less dark color, and more white color--I think if anything it would be wideband, but when you blow in the coat it doesn't seem like that? I will take a picture of two example hides tonight. people will explain it away as "natural variation in expression" but that is just a name for a gene we do not know yet modifying a gene we do know. the striking thing is the light rabbits lack the light tan triangles in the flank during the kit phase--that is for sure genetic.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

chocolate chin is not what I am referring to--they are chinchilla gray, but lighter, not because the dark parts are lighter but because there is less dark color, and more white color--I think if anything it would be wideband, but when you blow in the coat it doesn't seem like that? I will take a picture of two example hides tonight. people will explain it away as "natural variation in expression" but that is just a name for a gene we do not know yet modifying a gene we do know. the striking thing is the light rabbits lack the light tan triangles in the flank during the kit phase--that is for sure genetic.

Hmm yeah I'll be interested to see the photos for sure!

 

[eco2pia]

Okay, it took me longer than a day! Here are two pelts off of American Chinchilla rabbits. The one on the left had a tan colored cape as a kit. Looking like someone had spilled coffee on him (see pictures at the beginning of this thread). The one on the right did not.

The one on the left eventually lost the obvious brownishness. However, his coat remained darker. His eyelashes remained darker. His ear lacing remained darker. On the live rabbit, the darker coloration is prettier, in my opinion.

However, off of the rabbit, the lighter pelt has cleaner brighter coloring and is far more attractive for use as a garment or textile. You can no longer see the cape pattern on the darker pelt, but you might be able to tell that the ring pattern is slightly creamier instead of crisp silvery white. To my eye, the banding pattern on the hair shafts is not different so I do not think this is wide band.

I am honestly not sure what it is, but in a live showing rabbit I would choose to keep it, and in a line for producing pelts I would choose to lose it.