Blue vs ??

[DumansArk]

I'm sure this should be elementary, but are both these rabbits blue?

One has a white undercoat, the other is blue all the way down.


Here was one I kept back from another litter:

As an adult, he has some subtle brown shading to his coat - could just be rusting from sunshine.

I've had lilac, and sables, blue, and chocolate from this line. As for this litter, when viewing in person, they all appear blue. But why the different colored undercoats?

 

[Zass]

I'd love to see the answer to that question too.

It occurs on occasion in my rabbitry, and the kits grow up to have normal undercoats. That's all I know.
:shrug:

 

[Susie570]

I believe they are both blue.
The one with no undercoat is self, the one with the undercoat may be agouti, but I won't swear to that.

 

[Dood]

Genetically both are self and dilute / blue but there are modifiers that control pigments along a fur shaft that are not well understood but I wonder if wideband might actually have an effect on the self gene and is causing the differences :shrug:

For show purposes I believe the coat that is darker is preferable in self based rabbits

Its easy to see these unknown modifiers at work in agouti based rabbits - some have a more "mackerel" pattern to their fur others, like the the 3 Chinchilla breeds, have "zigzags" in the black banding of their agouti coat, some have only 3 rings of colour while others have 5

Adding Mini Lops to my AmChins has royally messed up their ring pattern (but improved density and length :mrgreen: )

I hope to work on getting my meat mutts fur close to the AmChin SOP and maybe be comfortable calling them American Chinchillas on the pedigrees instead of just mixes

 

[DumansArk]

You know, you guys are FABULOUS - thanks!! Rabbittalk is the only forum I ask questions on. There is no group kinder and heck, who knows any better? The best of the best are here. THANKS GUYS!!

 

[LopLover]

Don't quote me but the light undercoat looks exactly like the undercoats of my self steel Mini Lops. Steel gene?

 

[Dood]

:thinking: Interesting

If it was a masked steel then one of the parents must be agouti based, 50% of the kits should be agouti based and you'd expect at least a few to show evidence of ticking :shrug:

Or are you suggesting that steel does have an effect a self based rabbits coat? Maybe that is why the gene is prevalent in self based rabbits :shock: it darkens the self coat

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I have seen this in some of my blue Rex kits, and they do have full color extension down the hair shaft as adults.

I was told to cull them out of the lines- don't remember the reason though- it might have been as simple as "you can't show them as juniors" so get rid of them. :?

Here is the post about one I had:

post99521.html

 

[Zass]

:thinking: Interesting

If it was a masked steel then one of the parents must be agouti based, 50% of the kits should be agouti based and you'd expect at least a few to show evidence of ticking :shrug:

Or are you suggesting that steel does have an effect a self based rabbits coat? Maybe that is why the gene is prevalent in self based rabbits :shock: it darkens the self coat

I've pondered the exact same thing Dood, that perhaps breeders are unwittingly selecting for selfs that are carrying steel by keeping only kits with the darkest undercoats.

I never was able to test breed my snowball SF kits for steel, but... One parent was test bred 100% positively a genetic super steel (probably self based), so the snowball SF kits of his must have still had at least one copy of the gene.

 

[LopLover]

I can get a pic of my self steel mini lop when I get home. I know it isn't a Mini Rex but it seems to carry the same color coat properties. Where it seems to differ with me though is that the rabbits are aa selfs that carry ES. They look visually self until you blow into the coat, in which the undercoat appears light, or look closely behind their neck for ticking.

You could test breed it to an AA castor and see what you get.

From what I understand though, EsEs rabbits appear self with colored undercoats.

 

[JessiL]

Interesting theory about the steel gene and undercoat. We American Blue breeders are obsessive about trying to get that deep, dark blue all the way to the skin. And steel seems to be rampant in our gene pool. Coincidence? Maybe. I have been trying to arrange to do some test breeding of my "blue" Americans, but so far have been having problems finding anything truly clean to do the cross with! Perhaps my new Creme d'Argents? It's just that I'm not sure what the wideband gene presence might do...