? Blue Chinchilla ?

[Buknee]

These little butterballs are 3 weeks old. They were quite dark when born and have continued to get lighter. I think they are blue chinchilla, but am really not sure. They come from my black otter doe that I bred to a castor that carries chinchilla. (Yeah, I am learning. No chin next time.)

The individual pictures are of the 2 kits in question. The family photo just because I think they are so stinkin' cute!

Thank you for your input.

 

[Alaska Satin]

These little butterballs are 3 weeks old. They were quite dark when born and have continued to get lighter. I think they are blue chinchilla, but am really not sure. They come from my black otter doe that I bred to a castor that carries chinchilla. (Yeah, I am learning. No chin next time.)

The individual pictures are of the 2 kits in question. The family photo just because I think they are so stinkin' cute!

Thank you for your input.

They look like squirrel aka blue chin, and that would be most likely given their pedigree and siblings. But I could also be convinced they were lilac chinchilla, depending on which photo I look at. I believe that the best way to be confident is to look at their eyes: the blue chins would probably have blue-gray eyes (though they could have brown), but the lilac chins would almost certainly have brown/light brown eyes with a possible ruby glow to them in subdued light. Correction: lilacs do not have brown eyes; they have blue-gray eyes like squirrel, just adding the ruby glow.
There are good photos of kits in both colors on Mini Rex Color Guide
Yours are gorgeous!

 

[Buknee]

Since lilac is a brown dilute and these kits have black lacing on the ears, wouldn't that eliminate lilac?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Since lilac is a brown dilute and these kits have black lacing on the ears, wouldn't that eliminate lilac?

Well, yes, but if they're blue chin they should have blue lacing rather than black - a dilute rabbit should not have any black anywhere - but they definitely do not look like regular chins.
I did wonder about that ear lacing color, but figured it might be a photo/lighting effect. It only really looked black in one photo (the third one).

 

[Buknee]

I did wonder about that ear lacing color

I am not certain that they are both the same color. The color is a bit darker on one and the lacing is darker.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I am not certain that they are both the same color. The color is a bit darker on one and the lacing is darker.

Yes, the one in the foreground does look distinctly darker. It still seems strange to have such black lacing on a blue, but genes don't read the textbooks.

Based on surface color of the one in back - which I could convince myself might be faintly pinkish compared to the other blues in the photo - I could still go either blue or lilac ... but those ears lean blue for sure.

Chins (and castors for that matter) can very quite a lot in how dark/light their ticking is, so maybe that's what's going on.

Is there any chocolate or lilac (or amber or lynx) anywhere on the pedigree?

 

[judymac]

Just to further confuse things, I have chins born black that fade to pale fairly quickly:
This guy was born jet black with white agouti inner ears. By two weeks, he is showing the agouti banding:


Final color:

Except for the dark lacing on the ears, you would never ever pick black chinchilla for this rabbit, would you?

 

[Buknee]

Is there any chocolate or lilac (or amber or lynx) anywhere on the pedigree?

There is chinchilla and harlequin on the pedigree. But there has to be chocolate since the sister to this Dam is chocolate otter.

 

[Buknee]

Just to further confuse things, I have chins born black that fade to pale fairly quickly:
This guy was born jet black with white agouti inner ears. By two weeks, he is showing the agouti banding:

Yes! Exactly. I thought they were black when they were born. Then they looked brown and now chinchilla. So crazy! They don't even look like the same kits.

 

[Buknee]

2 more photos for comparison of the 2.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Just to further confuse things, I have chins born black that fade to pale fairly quickly:
This guy was born jet black with white agouti inner ears. By two weeks, he is showing the agouti banding:

Final color:

Except for the dark lacing on the ears, you would never ever pick black chinchilla for this rabbit, would you?

Wow, that's quite a transformation! Even given the effect of wool sort of stretching color out and making it look paler, that's striking.

All of my chins (both Satin and Mini Rex) start out looking black w/agouti markings - they're indistinguishable from castors or silver martins - and develop the color as they grow.

There is chinchilla and harlequin on the pedigree. But there has to be chocolate since the sister to this Dam is chocolate otter.

Interesting... so there is at least some possibility that the paler one is lilac since both of her dam's parents carried chocolate. There's no guarantee that the dam actually got a copy of the chocolate gene since neither of their parents were chocolate or lilac themselves.

Yes! Exactly. I thought they were black when they were born. Then they looked brown and now chinchilla. So crazy! They don't even look like the same kits.

That is just wild. I know how attentive you are or I'd wonder if someone got two different litters mixed up!

Some of my chins go through a rusty phase where they could be confused with a poor castor from the top view, but they never look that completely brown. But the additional pictures of the lighter one at a younger stage incline me back in the direction of lilac - it looks really chocolatey in these pics.

Weird color changes always make me think of the influence of the sable gene, but I don't really see any other evidence like the shading that usually shows up by this age.

2 more photos for comparison of the 2.

The lighter one does look like it has chocolatey ear lacing now, in this photo.

Bigger issue though is complete lack of ring color. Even though in my experience rings do take a while to show up, I'm now wondering about ermine, a non-extension chinchilla (to be honest that was actually the first thing I thought when I saw your original photos). I always look for the first evidence of ring pattern on the lower flanks/hindquarters. Can you check that out on your mystery bunnies? While you're at it, can you give us a photo comparison with the castor kit?

Some ermines look like pure white rabbits with dark eyes, but others can have very extensive frosting. The newly-recognized Czech Frosty is like that; it's a non-extension chinchilla. It looks a lot like your kits and it is a dense-color chin, not a dilute:

So maybe you have a regular ermine and a dilute ermine...?

 

[Buknee]

 

[Alaska Satin]

Oops, sorry, I meant a comparison of their fur when blown into, to see the ring pattern or lack thereof. If you can blow into the fur on each bunny like you did in the previous post, only on the lower flanks, it would be helpful. I was thinking that since it's pretty sure that the one is castor, you might be able to compare its ring pattern with the two mystery kits' to see if it's just a developmental phase in this litter/line, or if they really don't have rings.

Actually that top bunny looks a lot more like a regular chinchilla in this photo, if on the lightly-ticked side.... If this was the only photo I'd seen of these kits, I would've said chinchilla, castor, squirrel (top to bottom). But this previous photo doesn't show even the slightest hint of ring color:

Again, agouti ring pattern can take a while to develop on the back, so looking elsewhere on the animal might be helpful.

 

[Buknee]

Yes, the castor has the Agouti rings, the other two do not.
I think I have a blue chinchilla and an ermine.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Yes, the castor has the Agouti rings, the other two do not.
I think I have a blue chinchilla and an ermine.

Which do you think is the blue chin? A chin should have rings, however faint. If you see them on the castor you should see them on the chin/blue chin.

The rings will be much more compressed on a rex, but here is a squirrel Satin at 7 weeks:


And at about 5 months:

 

[MsTemeraire]

If it's the shaded gene rather than chinchilla then you can get odd colours like these. It can sometimes be difficult to differentiate between agouti shaded A_ c(chl)_ and chinchilla a- c(chd).

 

[judymac]

difficult to differentiate between agouti shaded A_ c(chl)_ and chinchilla a- c(chd).

Isn't chinchilla also a castor agouti (A-), just one with the c(chd)- instead of full color C-, so that the castor yellow (orange/fawn) is reduced to pearl white?

 

[judymac]

I'm now wondering about ermine, a non-extension chinchilla (to be honest that was actually the first thing I thought when I saw your original photos).

As far as the growing coat goes, ermine can look just like that. Here is a chocolate angora ermine just about the same age:

However, the ermines tend to start off looking pink:

and then by about ten days of age the tipping begins to show up.

I'm wondering if being c(chd)- with Ee makes a difference. My chins out of the ermine line tend to have very poor agouti banding. Could the recessive 'e' be messing with the banding, since 'e' doesn't have banding; or could wide band often associated with fawn/orange be the issue?

 

[judymac]

This is a comparison of chocolate vs black chins:
These kits were born black/chocolate with the white agouti inner ears. By several weks old, the banding is visible. (The chin you barely see on the back right behind the chocolate is a brassy chin, that yellowish tint seems to molt out later.)

Here they are again at six weeks: You can see how pale the chocolate coat has already become.

This is an adult Satin Angora chin (photo taken at a rabbit show, this is not one of mine.)


Note that except for some chocolate hairs around the face, how pale (and unbanded) the fiber is.

 

[Nello'sHops&Lops]

If it's the shaded gene rather than chinchilla then you can get odd colours like these. It can sometimes be difficult to differentiate between agouti shaded A_ c(chl)_ and chinchilla a- c(chd).

I was thinking the same thing, these look more like chinchilla light than chinchilla dark. Chinchilla light is sable, but pedigrees and people can get confused by the lingo