Black Otter or Seal Martin Rex?

[ihatedarkroast]

Are we black otter or seal? Dad is broken black otter I think. Mom is castor. His name is otto. I bought him a wifey and she looks the same but seller said she was a seal. I'm confused.

 

[Alaska Satin]

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Are we black otter or seal? Dad is broken black otter I think. Mom is castor. His name is otto. I bought him a wifey and she looks the same but seller said she was a seal. I'm confused.

He looks like a pretty normal black otter to me, especially with the rich rufus on his nape. The allele that produces seal, the shaded c(chl), prevents the production of the pigments that make that rufus color. A seal or sable marten will have silvery markings with a sepia tint around the edges, but no tan.

Here's a pretty good image of seal marten from Rex Marten Seal - Livestockpedia (Note that several of the images posted on that website do not seem to be accurate representations of the breeds they discuss.)

You may already know this, but "otter" refers to a full-color rabbit with a tan gene a(t), while "marten" refers to a tan a(t) rabbit with the chinchilla c(chd) or sable/shaded c(chl), which both eliminate that tan coloring from the markings. (The himalayan allele c(h) also removes the yellow pigment, and thus a tan a(t) rabbit with the himi allele becomes a martenized himalayan.)

Seal is a nearly-black rabbit with two copies of the shaded c(chl); while sable, aka siamese sable, is a rabbit with a single copy of the shaded gene c(chl) (along with either a himi c(h) or a REW c). Sables tend to be shaded a darker brownish-black on their head, feet and tail, hence the c(chl) gene being called "shaded."

Seals and sables are self rabbits aa, while tan-patterned seals and sables are called seal martens or sable martens, respectively.

 

[MsTemeraire]

Here's a pretty good image of seal marten from Rex Marten Seal - Livestockpedia

Going off-topic a bit, but that's a strange website. Much of the written information is correct, but some of the photos are inaccurate. According to the pics, the Alaska breed is white... but the written content states it's black and one colour only (correct). And there's a photo of a UK Polish masquerading as an American Polish.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Going off-topic a bit, but that's a strange website. Much of the written information is correct, but some of the photos are inaccurate. According to the pics, the Alaska breed is white... but the written content states it's black and one colour only (correct). And there's a photo of a UK Polish masquerading as an American Polish.

I wasn't necessarily recommending the website, just giving credit for using a photo I copied from site; it was the most helpful image of a seal marten I could find for the discussion at hand.

Yes, the site has a number of images and wording that do not seem accurate: the Dalmation Rex doesn't have a rex coat, and the description of Pointed Beverens says they have "white tips on their ears," which I think may mean white tips on their hairs. And those photos on the Alaska Rabbit page are of snowshoe hares. It's true, they're found in Alaska... but they're not even rabbits!

I don't know from whence the information comes that appears on "Livestockpedia;" it's frustrating to not be able to find out where sites are getting their information (which is one reason I try to credit sources of info and images when they're not my own).

I am interested in one of the breeds listed, though. Do you know anything about the Perlfee?

Thanks for the note. I've added a warning about the site's reliability. There's enough nonsense floating around the web that I don't want to add to the confusion.

 

[ihatedarkroast]

Yes, I noticed on several web sites that the photos and descriptions of various rabbit colors presented some conflicting information. That's why I gave up researching it myself and decided to ask the experts here!

Ok, I got confused about how much ticking or stray white hairs along the border of the belly were allowed and if that made a difference. He has some, but not a ton. He definitely has a reddish tint to the tan on the back of his neck. It's definitely a brown or tan, not silver. Thank you! It really helps me to understand the seal is the chin gene and not the tan gene in some form or other for those markings.

I will take a few pictures of the doe I bought to see if it's the same for her.

My goal was to breed more black otters. Because I think they look so cool! But if I'm not starting with black otters, I want to know what I actually have got.

Also, I've been away a while. How have you rabbittalk people been getting along? Good winter so far?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Yes, I noticed on several web sites that the photos and descriptions of various rabbit colors presented some conflicting information. That's why I gave up researching it myself and decided to ask the experts here!

Ok, I got confused about how much ticking or stray white hairs along the border of the belly were allowed and if that made a difference. He has some, but not a ton. He definitely has a reddish tint to the tan on the back of his neck. It's definitely a brown or tan, not silver. Thank you! It really helps me to understand the seal is the chin gene and not the tan gene in some form or other for those markings.

I will take a few pictures of the doe I bought to see if it's the same for her.

My goal was to breed more black otters. Because I think they look so cool! But if I'm not starting with black otters, I want to know what I actually have got.

Also, I've been away a while. How have you rabbittalk people been getting along? Good winter so far?

Yes, the pattern is from the a(t) allele at the A locus, while the color is from the C locus (C for full color, c(chd) or c(chl) for silver).

A normal silver marten has the chinchilla gene c(chd), but a sable marten or a seal marten gets its coloring from a different allele, c(chl), which was originally designed "chinchilla light." Because that was confusing, now it is more commonly known as the shaded or sable gene. They both remove the yellow pigment, but c(chl) also affects the black coloring, turning it sepia (though in the homozygous c(chl) c(chl) state, the sepia is so dark it almost looks black).

The ticking along the sides of the belly marking is a normal feature of otter/silver marten, but it's more or less desirable depending on the breed. Silver Marten (the breed), for instance, approve of the ticking along the sides of the belly markings. From the Silver Marten SOP: "Sides are to have evenly distributed silver tipped guard hairs running from belly color well up the sides and rump."

Silver Marten image from Silver Marten

Rex and Mini Rex, however, prefer a clean delineation between the markings and body color. From the Rex SOP: "Faults ...white or tan hairs in areas other than the patterned areas."

https://www.nationalrexrc.org/varieties

 

[ihatedarkroast]

Ooooooooh! That clears it up about the ticking then. XD Thank you!
As far as black vs. sepia, I think I would have to see it in person. It looks black but if the sun hits it a certain way it looks slightly brownish. I was probably over thinking it. Or maybe his winter coat is not quite as dark-dark as his summer coat is. Anyway, I'm slowly understanding the genetic coding of the phenotypes. One day I'll have a good grasp of it.