Black Jap???

[ladysown]

This I didn't expect.

Peek-a-mommy.. a NZR with a white snip
Bug. A blue magpie Harlequin

Nine kits. Two white, one very blue magpie, and the rest look to be be either VERY dark blue japs or Black japs (the latter being more likely).

So explain this.'

Red New Zealands...can they carry self? they are agouti based aren't they? so I thought they couldn't carry self...but maybe I'm mixed up. I certainly didn't expect black....

 

[eco2pia]

Yes, NZ Reds are agouti based, but self is recessive to agouti. So a red could be AA or Aa. If both parents are Aa, the babies would be aproximately 1/4 AA (agouti, or agouti based colors) 1/2 Aa (still look agouti, but carry self) and 1/4 aa (self). So this would tell you that both parents must be Aa...Fun!

The litter I lost out of 2 NZ Reds was 1/4 REW--showing that they each carried the gene for REW. Not desirable, but interesting.

 

[Jack]

The Ej doesn't show up on the Selfs, it basically from what I have read, rearranges the agouti bands from horizontal & individual hairs, to vertical, so you end up with stripes/bands of color on the rabbit.

A self, lacks the bands to rearrange, so it could carry the genes, but not express them.
Agouti is dominate, so you only need A_ to be an agouti, but for self you need aa, so your reds carry the self gene.

 

[eco2pia]

Darn, I really thought I had that all figured, didn't I? lol. I got japs mixed up with magpies in my head--sorry. I was picturing black and white...which would be...well not red anyway...

Reds CAN carry self though. I could breed two NZR and get red, REW and black all in the same nestbox...depending on what the red was hiding.

 

[moonkitten]

Red New Zealands...can they carry self? they are agouti based aren't they? so I thought they couldn't carry self...but maybe I'm mixed up. I certainly didn't expect black....

Which kit in the litter do you think is a self? Black japanese (this is the post title) is an agouti based rabbit, just like the red NZ. Did you get a solid black? I don't see that in the description of the litter. :shrug:

 

[ladysown]

Peek-a-mommy.. a NZR with a white snip
Bug. A blue magpie Harlequin

Should have mentioned that Peek is the doe, bug is the buck.

The litter is
One very blue - blue magpie, two whites, and six black japs.

I hadn't expected the black japs. I now know it kinda makes sense. I thought I'd get blue japs possibly, not black.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Red is full colour not dilute, so its more likely there would be full colour kits and not the dilute. The surprise I think is that your NZR carries dilute!!!

 

[Jack]

doesn't matter, you are working off the agouti, so what it would be modifying, isn't there for the Dilute gene.

 

[moonkitten]

doesn't matter, you are working off the agouti, so what it would be modifying, isn't there for the Dilute gene.

Er, not quite sure what Jack means. The dilute gene affects the black/blue ( or chocolate/lilac which you don't appear to have ) and has nothing to do with agouti vs self.

But I agree with Lauren, to me the surprise would be the blue -- or would have been before I started crossing my own reds with blacks that carry dilute. As it turns out the red buck I was using for about a year carried dilute and now my reds are polluted with it -- I get a number of fawns when linebreeding

 

[Jack]

Exactly, what I was saying it, that in the red, it doesn't matter, as it has no effect, but I do imagine that it could have quite an effect on the Harli

 

[moonkitten]

Exactly, what I was saying it, that in the red, it doesn't matter, as it has no effect, but I do imagine that it could have quite an effect on the Harli

Ah, but it does matter. A double recessive will produce fawn instead of red and again, that has nothing to do with if the rabbit is a self or agouti or even tan (the "other" A gene). Dilute does exactly what the name implies -- it dilutes the colour making the rabbit a "washed out" version of the non-dilute rabbit. For example, opal is a dilute agouti.

 

[ladysown]

so what all does this mean for Peek-a-mommy. Since she had a blue kit..that means she carries dilute? and therefore I shouldn't expect to ever get truly red kits from her? Even if I would ever breed her to a red new zealand buck ...or one carrying red?

 

[eco2pia]

As I understand it, dilute is a recessive, like the gene for REW.

The babies can carry it, or they can express it by being dilute, ie blue or fawn. However, since Peek-a-mommy is NOT dilute herself, she also has the gene for full color--red or black--and she CAN give you red with a red buck. So just like you might have REW pop up out of 2 colored parents, you could have dilute colors pop up out of two full colored parents. But they could also have full colored offspring too. If you are breeding for a specific color you will just have more culls.

 

[moonkitten]

so what all does this mean for Peek-a-mommy. Since she had a blue kit..that means she carries dilute? and therefore I shouldn't expect to ever get truly red kits from her? Even if I would ever breed her to a red new zealand buck ...or one carrying red?

Boy I hate not using letters to describe colour genetics

Peek-a-mommy has one Non-Dilute gene and one dilute gene. She appears red when you look at her. We say that she is "expressing" the Non-Dilute gene. Since Peek-a-mommy appears red with only one Non-Dilute gene, to get more reds they also only need one Non-Dilute gene to be passed from the parent.

So yes, bred to a red you could get more reds. In fact, bred to a red, there would be at least 2 possible Non-Dilute genes (one from each parent).

Unfortunately red is such a complicated colour including modifier genes which control the depth of the red, etc... that it's very hard to explain. But as far as JUST the dilute gene is concerned, you don't need to worry about never getting reds since she also has the Non-Dilute version to pass. You *might* get some fawn kits if you breed her to a red buck who also carries dilute.

 

[ladysown]

thanks, that makes a whole lot of sense.