Big surprise this evening...first kindle!

[SEP board]

Well either I misjudged the time or doe #2 did

She had her first kindle this evening and it came as a surprise. I was really thinking she wasn't pregnant at all. I was face-timing my brother and his family and showing them the quail and rabbits and there they were! Eight and all alive. I'm hoping that she's a good mother and that they all make it. I keep feeling like I need to do something as it's the first time but I know I just have to let her do her thing. Delicate little rascals though and cute as a button. She's got a nesting box. I put that paper shaving stuff at the bottom for them to snuggle into (suggested as it doesn't have any dust). And it's a warm night so I'm hoping there are no issues.

I haven't seen her nurse yet. From what I understand they often don't until the evening time?

Any advice is welcome.

 

[Marinea]

Congrats!

I'd suggest free feeding the doe while she nurses. I add a handful of black oil sunflower seeds daily for the milk fat.

Check the kits regularly. Look for kits not being fed. If need be, they can be fed separately. Chances are you won't see her nurse. Most nurse twice a day for just a few minutes at a time.

Final thought- ALWAYS assume they took if you breed. Nestbox in on day 28, no matter what.

Oh, and we love pictures here.

 

[Miss M]

Congratulations!!! :mbounce:

I'm hoping that she's a good mother and that they all make it.

Sounds like she's done great so far! A good many things have to be done right to end up with a nest full of warm popples! I'm assuming there's fur in there... warm Florida nights are not warm enough for newborn kits.

You can give the doe fresh parsley, too, to help stimulate milk production.

Marinea pretty much covered it. Another reason to check the kits soon after kindling is to make sure that the nest is clean (no placenta or blood) and there are no dead kits (which can be hidden in corners at the bottom, so you want to be thorough). As soon as you're sure she's done, pull the nestbox out and remove the kits and look them over, and rummage around in the nest. After that, pull the nest once a day or so to count kits and make sure they're all fed.

:camera:

 

[SEP board]

I've removed the hay for the photo. This is the paper shavings at the bottom that's suppose to be dustless. Checked this morning and all are breathing so very happy about that. I'll be keeping her feeder stocked up and I'm making sure she's got plenty of hay. I have parsley in the garden so I'll give her some of that as well. Thanks for the advice. I'll be adding bedding a bit later as well. I thought I added enough but they managed to reach the bottom of the box.

 

[Marinea]

Nice! Some pretty broken.

Doesn't look like she pulled much fur. A couple of replacements are dryer lint and tweezed out cotton balls. You can make a nice little hole in the box materials, line it with lint and put the kits back in the hole.

 

[SEP board]

Yeah, three are solid black, I think one is solid pink and then a mix. Wonder how the fur will look when it comes in? Cool new adventure for us

Good tip on the cotton. I save all the cotton we get (survival stuff) so I have plenty on hand. Also have a LOT of dryer lint (also survival stuff). As always thank you :bunnyhop: <br /><br /> __________ Tue May 03, 2016 9:41 am __________ <br /><br /> Updated photo using the cotton suggestion

 

[alforddm]

Congratulations! The first litter is the most exciting and the most nerve wracking. At least the two on the left look to have been feed. The other's I can't really tell from their positions.

You might want to look through this thread fed-vs-unfed-kit-pictures-t3052.html if you haven't already. It will help you know if any haven't been fed before they start going downhill.

 

[BlueHaven]

Just know you may never catch her nurse her kits. She will likely only do it when you are not watching, and it only takes her a few minutes once or twice a day. Just check the babies once a day and if the bellies are roundish and they are not super wrinkly they are fine. I have my does under camera 24 7 and I can check them with my phone many times a day or night, and I have caught one doe nurse her babies once. They are good at hiding those babies and don't want you to catch them.

 

[Miss M]

Aw, they are such nice looking babies!

Maybe tease out that cotton some more, so it's really fluffy and airy. It'll make it easier for them to all pile on and under, and keep together so they stay good and warm.

You can make a depression in the hay and then line it with cotton, and cover the kits with cotton. Whatever you can do to make it easy for them to stay in one pile. They'll get adventurous, and they'll move up and down in the bedding depending on whether they're too warm or too cool, but mostly they'll stay together. At this stage, they can't regulate their own temperature very well, so staying together gives them their best chance. A cool kit can't digest milk properly, and it's surprising just how warm they need to be.

Hopefully, the doe will pull fur next time. She did have a nice-size litter, and you're doing what you can to substitute for fur. Next time your rabbits start really molting out their fur, you can hold each one in your lap and pull the loose fur yourself, and keep it in case you need it later. This is not painful for the rabbit. (Make sure you are inside or in a small enclosed space, so if the rabbit jumps, you're not chasing it all over the yard.) You don't even need to have a doe that didn't pull fur in order to need fur for a nest. Sometimes, a nest will get soiled, and you need to replace the bedding and the fur. So it's useful to have extra rabbit fur. You can compact a lot of it into one sandwich bag, and then it'll fluff right back out.

You're doing great! Don't take all our suggestions as criticisms, because they aren't.

 

[SEP board]

You're doing great! Don't take all our suggestions as criticisms, because they aren't.

By all means keep the suggestions and links coming! I'm not an expert and that's why I've joined the forum

And all the information is very much appreciated and we're learning a lot. Thank you. <br /><br /> __________ Wed May 04, 2016 6:46 am __________ <br /><br /> Speaking of learning...

Okay, remind me how long till the eyes open. How long before they start venturing out of the box?

I've got the baby-saver 3 inches up but it was suggested to go further. I've got 1/2 x 1/2 and 1/4 x 1/4 so I plan to go up another 3 inches, probably this coming weekend.

From what I understand, they should be getting onto pellets after about a month? And how long till full or close to full size? Two or three months is what I'm figuring?

From what my reference book said, they shouldn't have any greens until after 3 months. Is that what ya'll think as well?

 

[Marinea]

Eyes open about day 11ish. I change out the nestbox materials for fresh at that time, to try to prevent any issues with nestbox eye. Climbing out of the nestbox can start at about two weeks. When it does, lots of folks either put a brick or something in front of the box so they can climb back in, or turn the box onto its side.

Once the kits ramble from the box, they will start to nibble whatever mom has to eat- pellets, hay, greens. My does regularly get greens, so the kits start on greens early. I haven't had any problems. I would not introduce greens with young kits if it's not a regular part of your feeding.

Most folks process anywhere from 8 to 15 or so weeks. When they hit a good size is going to be up to your individual buns.

 

[SEP board]

Okay, I've got a bit of time to extend the baby-saver, that's good. I've got plenty of that bedding now so I'll be sure to change it out like you've suggested. And I have more cotton and lint (I'll make sure to pull it more apart).

It will be interesting to see how big they get with a Mini/English mix.

Oh, forgot to ask about when the fur comes in, something we were curious about. And we were curious about the color of the fur. Does their initial body color indicated the fur color? Got three that are all black, some spotted and like one I think that was all pink. <br /><br /> __________ Wed May 04, 2016 12:07 pm __________ <br /><br />

Congratulations! The first litter is the most exciting and the most nerve wracking. At least the two on the left look to have been feed. The other's I can't really tell from their positions.

You might want to look through this thread fed-vs-unfed-kit-pictures-t3052.html if you haven't already. It will help you know if any haven't been fed before they start going downhill.

That was an excellent thread in you link. Thank you.

How long can a kit go before becoming concerned that they're not being fed or feed enough?

 

[Rainey]

The fed-unfed kit thread was a help to us when starting out, but it was actually seeing a number of litters that gave us confidence. And then if you do see unfed kit(s) there are all the other choices about how to respond. As far as I've been able to tell, sometimes the doe isn't a good mother or doesn't have sufficient milk and that is a doe we don't keep and breed again. But sometimes a kit just fails to thrive when the littermates are thriving and the doe has fed that many in other litters. Then we cull the kit. Sometimes we try first taking out some of the bigger kits for a feeding but if that doesn't result in a full belly for a thin kit, we stop there. Others will foster, hold the doe for a feeding, hand-feed a special goat milk formula. Some people reduce large litters if a doe kindles more than their experience says she can feed, not waiting for some to fall behind. Those are hard decisions and each of us has to make them for ourselves and our situation.
You'll see the fur growing in over the first few days--our first litter I found it pretty amazing how quickly the kits grow and fur out and change. The black ones will have black fur--but the pink ones don't grow pink fur (Sorry I couldn't resist that--had this mental image of these punk kits with pink hair)
Enjoy them and try not to worry too much.

 

[SEP board]

The fed-unfed kit thread was a help to us when starting out, but it was actually seeing a number of litters that gave us confidence. And then if you do see unfed kit(s) there are all the other choices about how to respond. As far as I've been able to tell, sometimes the doe isn't a good mother or doesn't have sufficient milk and that is a doe we don't keep and breed again. But sometimes a kit just fails to thrive when the littermates are thriving and the doe has fed that many in other litters. Then we cull the kit. Sometimes we try first taking out some of the bigger kits for a feeding but if that doesn't result in a full belly for a thin kit, we stop there. Others will foster, hold the doe for a feeding, hand-feed a special goat milk formula. Some people reduce large litters if a doe kindles more than their experience says she can feed, not waiting for some to fall behind. Those are hard decisions and each of us has to make them for ourselves and our situation.
You'll see the fur growing in over the first few days--our first litter I found it pretty amazing how quickly the kits grow and fur out and change. The black ones will have black fur--but the pink ones don't grow pink fur (Sorry I couldn't resist that--had this mental image of these punk kits with pink hair)
Enjoy them and try not to worry too much.

Thank you. We unfortunately lost four of the kits today. It seems that the mother just wasn't nursing them, at least not like she should be (or at all). Reading that link and how to look at the belly was invaluable. Also in that thread was how to put the doe on her back and stroke her head to put her in a trance and then put the kits on her. We did that with the four remaining at it seemed to go well. They look more fed than before that. We will do this again tomorrow and as often as is needed. So that brings up some questions;

Will the doe catch on and start nursing them?
Is twice a day enough if we continue with the assisted feeding?
If I wait two or three months before rebreeding her (which would make her 6-7 months old by that time) will she have more instinct of what to do?
Do you think 6-7 months is old enough or should I wait longer?

Thank you folks for all the information. I've learned a lot and wish I would have learned more sooner. I thought I was at least kinda-sorta prepared but realize that that there were some things I just didn't know. At least I know more than I did.

 

[MoonSpiritMom]

Sorry to hear that you lost some kits.

First Timers make mistakes some times... but don't hold it against her yet. She may end up being a great mother to the remaining kits and then go on to be the best mom for her later litters.

I have one doe that just had one kit. One lonely little kits. and a 2nd doe that had 9 kits. one kit was dead at birth, a 2nd she killed 3 days after birth (for whatever reason) So she had 7 left. I started to notice that she was really stressed with the 7 kits and leaving the smallest kits out of the nest. So i scooped up the 2 smallest kits and fostered them to the doe with only 1 kit when the kits were 5 days old. She took them happily! She's done a great job raising her foster babies, the are runts so grew a tad slower then the rest.. but they are fat and plump little things now at 5 weeks old. I will re breed both of those does in a few weeks. If that one doe gives me 1 kit again, that's ok with me.. because i can foster to her.... This doe may never give me large litters... and that's just fine because she is invaluable for her fostering capabilities.

If you have another doe... Think about breeding 2 does at the same time so that if you find issues in one litter (under fed kits) you have the ability to foster if needed. This can save kits. Does will usually take foster kits if they are at least 2 days younger/older then the kits she has. which mine were. but i didnt see an issue until day 5.

I'm just learning too! I have 2 litters of 5 week olds and a litter of 10 day old kits (7 kits, born to a 2 year old Californian/Flemish cross.. EXCELLENT mother...7 kits, all born alive, no losses to date, everyone is super fat right now.. lol love it! Their eyes are now all open! so cute i could just die from the adorableness!)

Just LOVE having rabbits!

 

[Easy Ears]

Is twice a day enough if we continue with the assisted feeding?

2x a day is plenty. Once is okay too. Hopefully she will catch on!

 

[Miss M]

Glad you could do the babysaver extensions! Climbing out of the nest starts soon after the eyes open, like she said, but kits can get pulled out of the nest if they don't let go when mom's done nursing.

Hopefully she'll get the idea of nursing pretty soon. One doe we had to hold in her nestbox (I'd never had luck feeding kits on a doe on her back -- just ended up with flying kits) long enough for the kits to nurse. We weren't sure she'd let her milk down, but she did. A couple of days doing that, and she started feeding them on her own.

 

[SEP board]

We are cautiously optimistic. We've assisted the doe three times by putting her on her back. The kits seem to be lively and well. After assisting her this evening we put the kits back in the nesting box and put the mother down by the box (we've been keeping the kits inside). She sniffed around for a moment and then jumped in the box and got into a nursing position over the kits and stayed there for a bit. Then she seemed to push around the bedding a bit and then rested in the box with the kits snuggled up under her. She stayed there for quite a while. We brought in her cage and placed the nesting box back in the cage. She eventually got out to eat and drink a bit. So we're looking at that as a good sign as she never had spent that amount of time with them at all to our knowledge. We'll see how the kits look tomorrow and see if she is now in mother mode full time.

My thanks again to everyone who responded with all the great advice.

 

[Rainey]

I was glad to hear that the remaining kits are getting fed and hope that will get easier over time.
Just wanted to say that ideally the doe isn't spending lots of time in the nest box. What you want (I think) is for her to get in a couple times a day and give them a good chance to nurse and then get out. A doe staying in the nest is more apt to foul it or to trample or scatter the kits. Took me a bit to get used to that as I was more used to watching goat does and seeing the kids nursing frequently or lying close to the doe. Our rabbit does are apt to check out the nest box when we've removed and returned it and some rest on top of the box or just in front of it, but don't really spend much time in it.

 

[SEP board]

Looks like we may be losing another one unfortunately. They were looking all wrinkly this morning so we put her in the nesting box. Three seemed to nurse for a bit but the fourth just didn't act normally. The kit seemed to be fine last night so no sure what went wrong. We tried the assisted nursing but the kit would not latch on and just squirmed around. Even tried some kitten formula but no dice. So just not sure.

The mother has plenty of food, hay and we've been giving her parsley. Not huge amounts but a few sprigs of it daily. And the water is fresh and plentiful. Been doing the freezer thing for all the rabbits. So we'll just watch and see if any of them make it or not.

Either way I won't be breeding her again until 2-3 months from now when she's older. Three months would put her at at about 7 1/2 months. We'll see what happens then.

__________ Sat May 07, 2016 10:21 am __________

Lost one this morning. We're down to 2 out of the original 8. I'm wondering if she stepped on this one as she was doing fine the night before and then all of a sudden just wasn't acting right the next morning (yesterday) The kit wouldn't latch on and just squirmed round. We tried the kitten replacement formula but it was a no-go. We'll see what happens today.

Very sad. <br /><br /> __________ Tue May 10, 2016 11:54 am __________ <br /><br /> Lost the last one this morning. The kit nurse fine last night and where she's at is warm and dry with no draft. Bedding was clean and dry. But she wouldn't nurse off the mom this morning and died shortly there after.

Not sure really what else we could have done that we weren't already doing. Particularly for this last one. Very sad. Maybe they just weren't healthy in some way? Maybe that last one just didn't stay warm enough regardless? Maybe it was just unavoidable?