Bad colored castors--ej gene messing with the color?

[skysthelimit]

I've had a series of bad castors, with uneven colors and barring on the feet. I have a kit now that I believe was a broken castor charlie. I took a look at the back of his ears, and they are a bit odd. What color there is on his body is mottled black/red/orange. I've never seen this before on any of my kits, but I have noticed the barring on the edge of the dam's ears. I know castors go through some interesting stage. These picts are not all that great. I will try to get some better ones later.

 

[Secuono]

Well, terribly blurry...
Kind of looks like my Cali's ears...

 

[tnelsonfla]

Have you asked other Rex breeders if they have this issue or have this happening? I don't have another show until August 4th, if I remember I'll ask a few.

 

[skysthelimit]

Have you asked other Rex breeders if they have this issue or have this happening? I don't have another show until August 4th, if I remember I'll ask a few.

Yes. I've been told that castors carrying ej harli get a bleed through, but this info comes from mini rex breeders who have tri color carriers. But I do not know a single standard Rex breeder who breed harlies. I've been scouring the internet looking for a picture of the brindling or bleed through, but haven't found one yet. Was hoping some of the people who breed harlies would recognize it as harlie/tri color markings. Both sire and dam have harlie in the first three generations of the ped.<br /><br />__________ Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:48 pm __________<br /><br />

Well, terribly blurry...
Kind of looks like my Cali's ears...

None of my castors have had ears like this,, they will look black tipped, but not with separate color spots. See how the black is dotted?

 

[lonelyfarmgirl]

you will never get good castors with harli's in the pedigrees. Harli is not a recognized standard rex color, which is why you aren't finding anyone who breeds them. If you want good castor color, stick to pedigrees with castor, red and opal only.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

If you want good castor color, stick to pedigrees with castor, red and opal only.

Castors pop up in my litters occasionally. They are out of black and blue animals mostly- I do have an opal doe, but I don't recall if she has thrown a castor.

How may gens of breeding castor to castor or castor to opal before one can expect good color?

 

[akane]

Castors pop up in my litters occasionally. They are out of black and blue animals mostly

Genetically impossible. What you are calling blues have to be opals to get castors. Castor is the equivalent of chestnut which is your basic agouti color. You cannot get agouti out of 2 self. It is not a possibility. One of the rabbits is not identified correctly.

If you want good castors start with good castors and only breed them to each other. Castor is one of those colors you have to commit to and have their own little breeding group without crossing out. Red and opal will alter the color of castor and you need to know what you are doing in order to know which you can breed to. The color crossing rules apply to standard rex except that there are fewer recognized colors http://mr-colors.tripod.com/

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Genetically impossible.

Hmm. I will have to check who they are out of. I started my herd with one black buck, a broken black doe, and an opal.

Okay- I was incorrect. My first was out of Poppy, the opal doe. Another out of the broken black bred to Captain, my "tweener" buck- genetically an opal, but lacking eye rings, belly color, and lacing. I haven't checked the others yet.

 

[skysthelimit]

you will never get good castors with harli's in the pedigrees. Harli is not a recognized standard rex color, which is why you aren't finding anyone who breeds them. If you want good castor color, stick to pedigrees with castor, red and opal only.

Actually I don't want good castors in this case, I want to know if this is what the harlie gene looks like as a bleed through in a castor, and if the other things like barred feet signify that my castors carry the ej gene. If so, I am interested in tri colors, which of course are showable.

I did buy another castor to replace the one I have now, because after two litters, it was obvious to me that she will never produce any good castors for me. But her REW's and blacks are beautiful, but unfortunately, two colors I am not interested in.

__________ Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:25 pm __________

If you want good castors start with good castors and only breed them to each other. Castor is one of those colors you have to commit to and have their own little breeding group without crossing out. Red and opal will alter the color of castor and you need to know what you are doing in order to know which you can breed to. The color crossing rules apply to standard rex except that there are fewer recognized colors http://mr-colors.tripod.com/

Sorry, I thought I made it clear that I wanted the ej gene to produce tri colors. Must have been a different post somewhere that I mentioned that. Castor to castor has not been followed in this line, as the original breeder was more interested in type than agouti colors, she breeds more selfs and otters than anything else. That is why I get so many colors out of one doe--to date she has produced an amber, chocolate, black, REW, otter, and and an opal.

 

[ZRabbits]

This is a very interesting and informative thread. Know something about genes, but got a long way to go. I wish you could post clearer pictures of your kits. See the dots that you speak of on the ears (I see the striping), and see the barred feet (is that like striping as well). I understand what "bleed through" means. I studied A, B, D. C & E (lots of variations).

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

I really need a better camera, but that's not in the budget yet

The biggest thing is because Rex are hard to get here, people have taken whatever they had and bred it, completely ignoring color rules. Type over color. I had a Castor out of a chin and a blue! The blue was out of an opal and a broken black. So my group has a lot of colors in their background, and I have to learn genetics to keep it from completely being a guessing game. Good thing science has always been one of my best subjects. And just when I get it all figured out, bam... another doe arrives and she's got the 4th gen. that's off everyone else's pedigree, it's her third gen....and I realize that it may not be the lack of rufus modifiers from the other non agouti colors (they do factor in) but the fact that a blue/fawn harlie is her great granddam. If that gene is popping up, I need to redirect it, to a tri color project, but it cannot go into my regular castor project. I only have one castor buck, but if he is possibly carrying ej, he can't be used in the castor program. So I need to recognize any form of ej markings I can to separate the two groups.

 

[ZRabbits]

i really need a better camera, but that's not in the budget yet

Yes, bunnies do come first. Camera will come in time. Then can you explain what you mean by spots?

Karen<br /><br />__________ Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:45 pm __________<br /><br />

I really need a better camera, but that's not in the budget yet

The biggest thing is because Rex are hard to get here, people have taken whatever they had and bred it, completely ignoring color rules. Type over color. I had a Castor out of a chin and a blue! The blue was out of an opal and a broken black. So my group has a lot of colors in their background, and I have to learn genetics to keep it from completely being a guessing game. Good thing science has always been one of my best subjects. And just when I get it all figured out, bam... another doe arrives and she's got the 4th gen. that's off everyone else's pedigree, it's her third gen....and I realize that it may not be the lack of rufus modifiers from the other non agouti colors (they do factor in) but the fact that a blue/fawn harlie is her great granddam. If that gene is popping up, I need to redirect it, to a tri color project, but it cannot go into my regular castor project. I only have one castor buck, but if he is possibly carrying ej, he can't be used in the castor program. So I need to recognize any form of ej markings I can to separate the two groups.

Thank you for that explanation. I truly get what you are saying about "type" vs color. Don't want to ignore the rules of the club, either and pretty good at science myself, definitely need to know about the "e" gene because I see what is in my lion head gen and need to recognize colors and patterns too. Thanks again.

Karen

 

[skysthelimit]

i really need a better camera, but that's not in the budget yet

Yes, bunnies do come first. Camera will come in time. Then can you explain what you mean by spots?

Karen

I am accustom to seeing a salt and pepper look to the castors, the red castor color, or a lot of gray. The ears are usually either black and red peppered, or just red with black ear lacing. The red is black tipped, or mixed in. I have never seen what this kits appeared to have, is black dots, like someone dropped tattoo ink on a red ear, the black was separate from the red. Unfortunately the kit died today, but I may repeat the breeding to see what happens again.

 

[ZRabbits]

So sorry to hear the loss of the kit. Did lots of reading last night and am finding out that my breeding pair may not be what they are said to be. Meaning they are lion heads (type), but their coloring on their papers might be wrong. Actually now know they are wrong. Definitely the adage: "What you don't know now could sure come back to bite you - hard later."

Understand about Castor (AA BB CC DD EE) and also it's other name Chestnut Agouti (Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee). Also learned about the ej gene (Japanese brindling gene) And you definitely need to be leery of this going into your Castor program.

Karen

 

[akane]

Castor can be Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee as well. What makes castor instead of chestnut is first the special rex coat that doesn't have the long hairs to show all the barring and second rufus modifiers that make the coat redder so you get that desired mahogany red instead of the usual chestnut color. Other than that genetically they are exactly the same and can hide or show the same colors.

 

[skysthelimit]

So here's the answer I got from Marty Adams---


the jap harli gene should not affect color intensity.
However, the magpie harlequin genetics (ej/ch) most certainly will, as
it is chin based.
Best way I know to check for jap influence on an agouti is to examine the belly under color.
Blow into the belly from armpits to groin and from side to side to see
if you can locate patches of white in the slate undercolor. If they
form a pattern, as in the blocks of color pattern on harlequins, then
that is a harli influenced castor. Try doing this check when the
rabbit is in full or at least nearly full prime to avoid being fooled
by double coat.

The spots on the ears of a charlie broken would be, in my estimation a
good indicator of the presence of jap harli genetics. That is pretty
much how the ears of charlie Rhinelanders look.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Sky that picture you posted is of a harle/tri not a castor... The jap gene will bleed through onto castors and otters as Mr. Adams has said.It is somewhat incompletely and co-dominant. There must be SOME harlequin Rex around as their counterpart the tri or technically a broken harlequin are showable in brokens.

 

[skysthelimit]

Sky that picture you posted is of a harle/tri not a castor... The jap gene will bleed through onto castors and otters as Mr. Adams has said.It is somewhat incompletely and co-dominant. There must be SOME harlequin Rex around as their counterpart the tri or technically a broken harlequin are showable in brokens.

I can't quite say where the original blue/fawn harlie came from, as it is in the third and forth generations, and the prefix does not match anyone who currently breeds. I saw one that someone had at the Mason Dixon PA show in Feb., but it doesn't look like that breeder has any left. I'm guessing that people that have/had them are no longer breeding or showing, or are not on the web. Several of the people on this ped no longer show or have gotten out of Rexes because of lack of competition.

It's a lot like finding the sables and lynxes, tris are grouped in that bunch of colors that are hard to deal with, so are castors by the way, and because of that they are not easy to find. My breeder no longer breeds castors, I took her last two.

 

[Rustina]

My broken Castor doe is apparently a Tri Castor. He whole litter has Tri Castor Babies except for one broken black. I'm really not sure what to do, she has such nice type but I'm definitely not allowing these young to go forth and multiply.....what a genetically annoying problem.......

Now I don't know if I should keep her at all....

 

[skysthelimit]

My broken Castor doe is apparently a Tri Castor. He whole litter has Tri Castor Babies except for one broken black. I'm really not sure what to do, she has such nice type but I'm definitely not allowing these young to go forth and multiply.....what a genetically annoying problem.......

Now I don't know if I should keep her at all....

People would pay good money to get nice tris back into standard Rex programs.