Baby Flemish help maybe?

[Kihluna]

Well none of the kids nor the dogs have ever touched her when I was expressing the wounds. And I washed my hands every time.

As for her dog, I tend to leave it in its crate in the room. We have 5 dogs ourselves, all small and though they are yappy, they are well behaved. <br /><br /> __________ Thu Feb 06, 2014 11:14 pm __________ <br /><br /> I keep seeing the P infection being called Snuffles, so I looked up snuffles and she doesn`t have any of those symptoms. She eats and drinks just fine still. Is there any other thing it could be aside from P? I know I`m grasping at straws here.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Our roomate is now spitting mad that I would "let an animal that can get us sick in the house", joy.

You are the only one that really has a risk factor because you got scratched and there may have been bacteria on the rabbit's nails. As long as you washed the scratches thoroughly and are not immuno-compromised you should not have anything to worry about.

Additionally, "P" is easily treated with antibiotics in humans and other animals. Rabbits don't respond well because they have very little blood flow in their sinuses, so the antibiotics cannot completely eradicate the bacteria.

I`m going to bring her back to the breeder most likely. I honestly don`t want to because I know she is going to die there, but we cannot afford to take her 2 hours away to get her put to sleep.

I think taking her back is your best course. I know that if she was mine I would give her a swift and humane end, so hopefully the breeder knows how to do so as well and wont let her suffer. She was sold to you in poor condition and I don't feel it is your responsibility to pay to have her euthanized or undertake doing so yourself.

I`m going to ask to see the other rabbits as well.

I would not get a replacement rabbit from that breeder. If s/he will give you a refund, great. But if not, swallow the loss and RUN- don't walk!- away.

There are many dedicated and responsible breeders out there that pride themselves on raising healthy and disease resistant rabbits. Find one of them so you don't have to go through this heartache again.

What should I be looking for in Boris?

If the baby bun hasn't been sneezing or having a white snotty discharge from the nose, Boris will likely be fine. The systemic type of Pasteurella is spread by direct contact through wounds. There is also a respiratory form that is spread by rabbits sneezing on one another.

I am really sorry that you had such a terrible experience. She looks like a sweet little rabbit, and I know that you must feel attached to her already.

If you do decide to get another rabbit from a reputable breeder, you should wait at least 4-8 weeks before doing so to make sure Boris remains healthy. Someone here on RabbitTalk may know of a good breeder in your area, or you may want to attend a rabbit show.

You can find local shows by entering your state on the ARBA website. https://www.arba.net/showsSearch.php

Please keep us posted about Boris. I hope you will have only happy news to share with us here. :clover:

 

[Miss M]

P can manifest itself a number of different ways, one of which is Snuffles, perhaps the most common. P can also cause abscesses anywhere on the body, a variation of wry neck, blindness, pyometra, partial paralysis (from infection along a nerve), and sepsis. Among other things.

P is so extremely common in rabbits, with perhaps over 80% of rabbits actually carrying the bacteria, but the vast majority of them showing no symptoms. It is entirely possible that your little buck carries it, yet has a strong immune system and it cannot get a foothold and infect him. P. is so common in rabbits, that it is generally the first thing that is thought of when a rabbit gets sick.

Other things can cause abscesses in rabbits, like staph.

Unfortunately, with so many, many abscesses, I have to think that whatever is causing her abscesses, whether P or not, has gone systemic. I would be surprised if she does not already have it in her organs. If you were to try to fight this, it would require large doses of antibiotics, and she'd probably have to take them for the rest of her life. And to be honest, I do not think you could save her.

I think she is already pretty close to dying, I am so very sorry to say, as I do believe that a bun so overwhelmed with abscesses is likely to already be in sepsis.

I do also agree that she needs to be put down. You have been giving her such excellent and loving care, but she is so very, very ill. If the seller will put her down, I would take her there. If not, perhaps you know someone who can do it for you, if you cannot bear to do it yourself.

I am so sorry to say all of this.

As for your buck, I would wash everything again that has possibly come into contact with or been in the area with the doe. I would watch him carefully, and not bring another rabbit in for at least a month. If I am not mistaken, P as abscesses is not as contagious as P as snuffles, so there is a good chance he will be fine.

Rabbits don't respond well because they have very little blood flow in their sinuses, so the antibiotics cannot completely eradicate the bacteria.

Also, for abscesses rabbit abscesses are so well-encapsulated, it is difficult for antibiotics to treat those as well.

If s/he will give you a refund, great. But if not, swallow the loss and RUN- don't walk!- away.

And change your clothes and wash up when you get home, if you go back to the breeder.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I have to think that whatever is causing her abscesses, whether P or not, has gone systemic.

That hadn't occurred to me, but I bet you are right! That could very well be why she is pot-bellied.

Poor little bunny.

 

[Kihluna]

I just wanted to update. This morning Penelope was extra bloated. I called the breeder six times, the first time she hung up on me, after that it went to voicemail each time. I was going to gas her like we did with our rats awhile ago but I remembered how horrific that was to watch. Google said chinning was the most humane way to dispatch them and that since she was tiny it wouldn`t be hard. It was horrible. She screamed the whole time and it took me about ten minutes to do it correctly. Lets just hope I never have to do that again. omg.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Oh no!

I am glad that her suffering has ended, but very sorry that it didn't come as swiftly and humanely as hoped.

I feel badly that since I felt she was in a "pet home" that you would not consider ending her life with your own hands.

Had we (the forum) known, we could have given you multiple suggestions on the methods we use when ending a rabbit's life. There are many different options to choose from and everyone needs to find the right way for them. I have never heard of "chinning".

Unfortunately, since none of us are born knowing how to kill an animal quickly and humanely, there is a learning curve. It doesn't always go as planned, especially the first time. I have rabbits as livestock animals, so have processed hundreds for meat, and there is still the occasional dispatch that goes awry.

It is distressing enough when the animal is meant for meat, but I know you must feel ten times worse because she was a pet. Please don't continue to beat yourself up about it.

Judging from the breeder's behavior this morning, she probably would have left her to a slow lingering death. At least she is saved the misery of a long slow death, and her pain is over now.

((Hugs))

 

[Miss M]

I am so, so sorry, Kihluna!

I don't know what chinning is, either... but I do know that especially when you've never had to put an animal down yourself, any method can be so hard and go so wrong. Like MSD, we raise them for meat, and still have one go wrong now and then.

I agree with MSD... I think the breeder would not have dealt with it, and just would have left her to suffer until she died. Considering that, even though putting her down went so badly and she got scared, I think it was much better than what she would have endured if the breeder had taken her back.

Don't beat yourself up. It may not have been as quick an painless as we all try to attain, but you did the right thing.

:grouphug:

 

[Zass]

I looked up chinning http://www.how-to-hunt-rabbit.com/killing-rabbit.html , it's basically cervical dislocation performed with just the hands.

I would NOT recommend that to ANYONE as a FIRST attempt at the process! There are much more sure ways to accomplish the same task!!!

I'm sorry you had such a horrible experience.

Feel free to ask about rabbit euthanasia on here if you ever need information, the RT members have a lot of first hand experience and are very open about the topic.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I looked up chinning, it's basically cervical dislocation performed with just the hands.

Oh. :shock: Yeah, that is not something I have tried.

I can see a very large strong person being able to do that effectively even if they didn't get the technique just right, but I am too petite to attempt it.

Again, I am so very sorry, Kihluna. :encourage:

 

[Miss M]

Oh.... that's what it's called. Yes, a number of people have said that it is very hard to do.

 

[Kihluna]

I`m sorry I didn`t mean to alarm anyone.
We are a "pet" home but I did grow up on a ranch and have watched my father kill quite a few animals for meat or ending its misery. I did about four hours of research before I attempted it but you`re never really prepared to kill something with your own hands. I just didn`t feel right using an instrument because my aim and all. I had to put down a few pet rats before with a co2 chamber. They were about four years old and blind but it was slow and very depressing and they cried like I betrayed them.
My look on all of our animals is that, if possible, I will deal with their illnesses at home in a loving environment. Aside from rabies/liscense in our dogs no one touches them but me. (Unless something is life threatening of course) We have dogs, a snake that is microchipped, the rabbit, finches and parakeets. Not to mention the four large fishtank colonies I manage. I do extensive research on all animals before we even consider bringing it into our home. The rabbits were the one time I just let whim carry me and I have learned my lesson there trust me.


edit: The reason I chose to end it at home was mostly based on our location. We are at least an hour from any vet that will see a small animal and the two closest wouldn`t take us in for at least a week. By then she would have been much much worse based on the way her stomach was getting.

 

[Zass]

It's OK to do the job yourself. (Most people who raise rabbits do)
We may have been able to recommend easier methods though.

I raise meat rabbits for my family's use (including 2 large dogs and a pair of cats).

We also find our aim too poor to attempt bonking. And honestly, we have no desire to use any method that involves holding a rabbit upside down. We are also within city limits, so discharging a firearm is not an option.

I find cervical dislocation is easiest for me by placing a slender metal bar behind the neck of a relaxed rabbit (I give treats to nibble during this process, the bar does not usually alarm a rabbit accustomed to being handled).

I press down on the bar the same moment my husband pulls up and back on the legs. If done correctly, the animal looses consciousness and automatic functions immediately and without any struggle. It still takes a firm and steady hand to accomplish, but thankfully, we have killed 100's of rabbits this way and haven't yet managed to botch the procedure!

 

[Miss M]

We have pretty much the same philosophy of animals... when we get a dog, we will have a vet for the dog, because it will help protect our livestock and us.

Other than that, we deal with all animal illnesses ourselves. If it can't be solved within reason and budget, it is put down.

And yes, I have great aim with my bare hands, and with sights, but if I am holding a tool, I do not. I cannot do the bonking method, because I cannot aim well. We use a pellet rifle -- it's air powered, so it is not a firearm.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I`m sorry I didn`t mean to alarm anyone.

Oh, we aren't alarmed. I am upset with myself for automatically assuming that you would not be willing to do the deed yourself because I perceived you as a "pet" home.

I didn't want to shock or alienate you as a new member of the forum, but wish I had explicitly stated that if you chose to put the rabbit down yourself that we would be happy to discuss options and our personal experiences to help you make your decision on how to proceed.

I feel responsible for you having such a bad experience that we could have possibly prevented. Please accept my apologies.

We also find our aim too poor to attempt bonking. And honestly, we have no desire to use any method that involves holding a rabbit upside down.

I tried the method you speak of, and the outcome was not always predictable for me either. Sometimes I would deliver only a glancing blow to the head, and I also didn't really like hanging them upside down.

I now use what I call "the Swedish method" since it is the only legal way for an owner to dispatch a rabbit in Sweden. The rabbit is placed on a solid surface (I use a piece of wooden beam) and struck on the forehead. I like this method because the rabbit is in a natural position and I can pet them to be sure they are calm and relaxed before striking them.

Sometimes they are only stunned by the blow, but when stunned the pain receptors in the brain are inactive. The next step is to swiftly cut the neck to bleed the rabbit out. So whether they are dead from the blow, or die from blood loss, it is over quickly and (hopefully) with no stress or pain.

My look on all of our animals is that, if possible, I will deal with their illnesses at home in a loving environment.

We do that as well. Very rarely do any of our animals go to the vet for care. I used to work in veterinary hospitals, so have a good background in animal health. The internet can be invaluable in formulating a treatment plan, especially if you favor alternative medicine and avoid pharmaceutical drugs as I do.

I do extensive research on all animals before we even consider bringing it into our home. The rabbits were the one time I just let whim carry me and I have learned my lesson there trust me.

Well, you have found a great place here at RabbitTalk to educate yourself on rabbit care. I am sorry about the sad circumstances that brought you here, but I'm glad you found us!

 

[Miss M]

I am upset with myself for automatically assuming that you would not be willing to do the deed yourself because I perceived you as a "pet" home.

I didn't want to shock or alienate you as a new member of the forum, but wish I had explicitly stated that if you chose to put the rabbit down yourself that we would be happy to discuss options and our personal experiences to help you make your decision on how to proceed.

I feel responsible for you having such a bad experience that we could have possibly prevented. Please accept my apologies.

Yes, all of that. I couldn't figure out how to say it, but me too.

 

[Kihluna]

You guys are all very caring. I was worried I had alarmed you all but I see I just showed up with very little background info and probably should have done an "about me" page or something before just jumping into my issues lol!

On a side note, and I will move this to a new area if needed. My mother heard I had to end the rabbit and immediately went out and bought us a new female..
I explained that she cannot come to our house until Boris is deemed ok so she is living in a crate at moms house until Boris checks out fine. Would two seperate cages be better than one of those fancy 2 rabbit homes that are able to be seperated? I was thinking two maybe 2 foot tall ones I could put the birdcage in between might be better. The area I want them in is by our 4 foot long window. We have a 4.5 foot tall antique metal birdcage on a stand that is there and on top of Boris is our finch setup. I`d prefer to keep the finches on top of Boris as..for some reason they have calmed down a lot since we put them up there dunno why but when they were closer to eye level they killed each other. We used to have 7 >.> now we have 4.

 

[Miss M]

You guys are all very caring. I was worried I had alarmed you all but I see I just showed up with very little background info and probably should have done an "about me" page or something before just jumping into my issues lol!

Oh, no, it's alright... you had a serious health issue, really of emergency proportions, going on. It's hard, when you're so worried, to think of all the information you need to give in order to get the help you need. We've had quite a few members join in the middle of a crisis, and the hellos can wait.

As for the other, yes, I'd definitely post about that in Rabbit Care. Rabbit Care is getting a facelift soon, but it should be fine. You'll definitely get more replies about it there.

 

[Doc Oc]

A more accurate term would be "irresponsible breeder", since location has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of care an individual gives to their animals... but that doesn't fit with the ARA agenda to demonize all breeders, so of course they aren't promoting it. :roll:

:yeahthat:
Thank you very much for the correction. By BYB I didn't mean location, but people who breed just for sake of it, as you put it irresponsible breeder. My apologies if I offended someone by that. I will be more careful with the phrase :sorry:

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I was worried I had alarmed you all but I see I just showed up with very little background info and probably should have done an "about me" page or something before just jumping into my issues lol!

Oh, no, it's alright... you had a serious health issue, and the hellos can wait.

Absolutely! Thank you, too, for this lesson to not make assumptions. I, for one, will try not to make the same mistake again!

By BYB I didn't mean location, but people who breed just for sake of it, as you put it irresponsible breeder.

Oh, I know you didn't intentionally try to cause offense.

That phrase has become a common part of today's vernacular... but unfortunately, by using it we are promoting the goals of PeTA and the HSUS, whose goals are to eventually stop the breeding of ALL animals, whether as pets or livestock.

It is a small thing, but if we instead use words that accurately describe good and bad breeders, it will make their terms less effective in the long run.