Astrex genes- what do you know about em?

[Zass]

So, there isn't much written on the web.

But you guys have seen them crop up on and off, right?
How much has anyone learned?

I mean, I have THIS going on, if not of a few websites and a few old RT threads, I'd be panicking ullhair:

Want to see more? My personal gallery is full of pics.

So much for velveteens! Of course rabbits are ALWAYS full of surprises. :lol: I guess hair loss isn't uncommon with astrex...and it's probably a good sign that this is actual astrex right?

I've already contacted the breeder who owns the buck, they are willing to try a repeat breeding to see if we get another whole litter of these kits.

They also informed me that this was normal for this line of velveteens (the crimp, not the hair loss) and that they would be normal coated as adults.
A look online shows that this is not what the average velveteen lop looks like at this age!
I am reasonably positive that astrex genes may have came in with the mini rex used in their creation, and that other lines will indeed have it.

I'm not convinced they will look the same as that breeder's previous litters, as they we not inbreeding their rabbits until I asked to produce this litter. They only had one unrelated pair. It is possible that something important may have been doubled up when Mucky was bred back to her own father.

Well, anyway. I'd like to know what you guys know about this.
For starters, are there health issues linked to this coat type?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Wow!

Curly little buggers!

I have had curly Rex off and on, but like your breeder said, they mature to normal coats... usually with very good density!

Mine have never gone bald though.

I have PM'd DumansArk for you. She has been working with Astrex for a number of years and can probably tell you the most about the Astrex gene. opcorn:

 

[Zass]

I have PM'd DumansArk for you. She has been working with Astrex for a number of years and can probably tell you the most about the Astrex gene.

Thanks MSD! We have just recently spoken about these kits, but I would appreciate any info she might be willing to add to this thread!
I wasn't going to re-publish anything that was sent to me via PM without permission.

Actually, I hadn't even noticed they were odd... I wonder how long it would have taken me :?

 

[MamaSheepdog]

I wasn't going to re-publish anything that was sent to me via PM without permission.

Hah! Me neither! Duman and I had extensive PM conversations about the Astrex gene back when I got my first curly kits! :lol:

Actually, I hadn't even noticed they were odd...

Odd? ODD?!?!

Od-dorable, maybe!

So... are you hoping they stay curly or would you prefer they turn -er- "normal"?

I wish some of mine would keep the curl, but no!

 

[Zass]

So... are you hoping they stay curly or would you prefer they turn -er- "normal"?

I wish some of mine would keep the curl, but no!

I'm game either way. Smooth rexy velveteen lops are still pretty amazingly adorable, and the kids could show them for 4-H.
Curly lops would be OK with me too I'd try and make more of them. I wouldn't try and do it all myself though. If I had lines making curls that stuck, I'd get them to as many breeders as were interested so we could swap stock and share information.

 

[ckcs]

Love the fur, love the brokens. I wish I could get color coverage with my brokens. My first Lionhead litter had a broken with lots of color. I've not seen one with that much color since. I bet I get around 10%. Since the parents are a broken and solid, I've ruled out charlies.

 

[Zass]

Love the fur, love the brokens. I wish I could get color coverage with my brokens. My first Lionhead litter had a broken with lots of color. I've not seen one with that much color since. I bet I get around 10%. Since the parents are a broken and solid, I've ruled out charlies.

I was actually a bit disappointed with the color. Their mother has the better pattern I believe

[album]2314[/album]

 

[DumansArk]

I'm game either way. Smooth rexy velveteen lops are still pretty amazingly adorable, and the kids could show them for 4-H.
Curly lops would be OK with me too I'd try and make more of them. I wouldn't try and do it all myself though. If I had lines making curls that stuck, I'd get them to as many breeders as were interested so we could swap stock and share information.

Regarding Curly Lops, if you haven't come across them already, search "Canadian Plush Lops" and once I can log into my Photobucket account again (oh dear, why don't I keep a record of these passwords?) I will upload photos of Anna-Marie Scott Coomber's curly "plush lop" line of Rex Vidder rabbits that came from stock she imported to the UK. She wasn't too broken hearted that hers turned curly either :lol:

I am not active on the group, but there is a Facebook gathering for Astrex if you're on FB. The networking possibilities is nice, and everybody is looking for stock. The problem is transport.

There is a member on that group that is in PA (I don't remember where but I will look) -- I do remember they have an Exotics farm that includes a resident Zebra and a Camel though

__________ Sat May 10, 2014 9:29 am __________

So much for velveteens! Of course rabbits are ALWAYS full of surprises. :lol: I guess hair loss isn't uncommon with astrex...and it's probably a good sign that this is actual astrex right?

If rabbits weren't full of surprises, you just know we'd get bored...thank goodness that will NEVER happen, eh? :lol:

Hair loss is a really interesting occurrence in Astrex. ARBA judge Stephen Roush has been working on a Tan Mini Rex project (MR with American Tan colors) for a decade or two, and he has seen curlies pop up, as well as furless animals. He donated some to a breeder who, I won't name here, as she is not friendly to others that raise Astrex -- but she now has a furless rabbit line, as well as a curly line. I share that to say that this leads me to wonder if Baldie Astrex breedings can lead to thinner and thinner coats, until furless is produced. (This happens in Rex rats - a double Rex is often hairless - but not in every line. Ahh, mutations, mutations!) Yet a breeder in Canada holds the belief that Baldies have the strongest curl as adults and throw very curly babies. It could be her line's mutation. Every locale seems to have something just a little different. Fascinating!

Dr. Lukefahr of Texas A&M successfully produced a furless line of rabbits stemming from one very furless individual, paired to a whole lot of NZ Does. Upon seeing "Baldie" Astrex kits, he said: "You certainly have a unique gene that we did not have in our furless population. Would be interesting to know the physiological mechanism that accounts for these fur loss/gain patterns."

Yes. Astrex breeders all over would love to know that physiological mechanism.

"Baldies" in Astrex show up in the line from time to time. I, as well as other Astrex breeders, am looking to better understand the relationship of the genes (furless (ff), temporary furless as juvenile (Ff), and Astrex (wawa).

Take a look at the Curly horse (Bashkir & American Curly). And Astrex mice and Rex rats. Teddy Cavy & Hairless Cavy. In each of these animals, there is some relationship between a curly coat and baldness and temporary baldness, just like there seems to be with rabbits. I believe there is a relationship between the Rex breeds of Cats and the 'hairless' Sphynx also?

 

[Zass]

So, if they happen to shed out into normal coats. Should I just pet them out? (I don't believe it would be hard) What does everyone else do with curly-as-kits rex?

 

[DumansArk]

MSD brings up an interesting point that hers have never gone bald. Maybe there is something to that then. I kept a baldie doe kit from this spring's litter to test breed. I am now more curious than ever to see what happens. MSD, have any of your curly kits grown in the choppy furred look at all once they were adults?

So, if they happen to shed out into normal coats. Should I just pet them out? (I don't believe it would be hard) What does everyone else do with curly-as-kits rex?

I tell breeders that if they have the space/resources, keep the two that were curliest and breed them back to their parents. Then keep choosing the two curliest kits from each litter, pairing up 1/2 siblings & niece/nephews and so on. The adult rabbits that produced my very first litter of Astrex didn't look particularly curly; just some raggedy shoulders and belly fur. But now a few years in, and my curliest Doe looks world's different than those first rabbits, and by back-crossing her to her sons each generation I am seeing the best kits yet.

I've already contacted the breeder who owns the buck, they are willing to try a repeat breeding to see if we get another whole litter of these kits.

:all-ears: :good-luck: :clap:
Yaaay! I can't wait to see updates here

They also informed me that this was normal for this line of velveteens (the crimp, not the hair loss) and that they would be normal coated as adults.
A look online shows that this is not what the average velveteen lop looks like at this age!
I am reasonably positive that astrex genes may have came in with the mini rex used in their creation, and that other lines will indeed have it.

There have been a couple of Velveteen breeders joining the Astrex group with some curly/crimpy kits; it's blamed on the Rex gene in the Velveteen line, and as you said, is Not desirable at all in this breed they are working with so hard to pass ARBA muster. Just like Rex & Mini Rex breeders raising for pelts & shows, curly kits are generally culls.
But if this is the only exposure the breeder has had, I can imagine they are used to it.

I'm not convinced they will look the same as that breeder's previous litters, as they we not inbreeding their rabbits until I asked to produce this litter. They only had one unrelated pair. It is possible that something important may have been doubled up when Mucky was bred back to her own father.

Sounds like it! When I started out, I wasted many years trying to outcross (to keep rabbits from being inbred) yet keep curl. It was almost fruitless. All the while, I did a little inbreeding to play around on the side, nothing I'd advertise to sell (because so many buyers wanted nothing that was Inbred) but wow was there ever a difference. It changed my whole thought process and I began to search for more information on linebreeding/inbreeding. The rules are different for everybody "Nothing closer than ___!" and "NEVER mother to son - but son to daughter is safe" (I still don't understand the difference there - and I have great success with a doe bred to her sons). I came across some great anecdotes though, about closed herds that began with a breeding trio, and 20 years later are still going strong.
My herd is different now; they all share common ancestors. I have lost sales because people don't want rabbits with inbreeding in the pedigree. I do my best to explain about locking in genes, about the origins of ANY breed, any species... but if that is the way they feel, then that is their prerogative.

Well, anyway. I'd like to know what you guys know about this.
For starters, are there health issues linked to this coat type?

You've already touched on the thin fur pads on the feet. It isn't in every line, and I only recently had it show up with a buck; while the rest of his siblings were normal, his feet were not. He reminded me of a nice show MR buck we had in 4H years ago. Solid flooring, wire floor with rest pads/boards; didn't matter. I loved his temperament, his color, his curl. But those feet. Sigh. With a gene pool this small, CULL HARD is the rule.

Entropion, where the eyelids turn inward (and the other condition, where they turn outward) is something that has been brought up on the Astrex boards.

A Canadian Rabbitry says her curliest lines decades in the making have curly toenails. Others say they look long and untrimmed which causes the curl. I'd hate to judge and then find out it really happens.

Baldie kits born in the winter can really struggle if they lose a lot of hair. They do great if born in the summer though, just like furless rabbits, they take the heat great.

Hmm, that is all I can think of for health issues.

__________ Sun May 11, 2014 7:52 pm __________

About culling hard & thin fur pads on the feet -- I meant that for my own rabbitry; it is something I have read about breeders working with (in order to keep the integrity of curl) and then selecting for the offspring that don't have footpad issues. I know a woman in California who imported some reeeally nice Astrex lines, and she is working on the feet in this manner. No reason to throw out babies with the bathwater if that is what you have to work with.

__________ Sun May 11, 2014 7:59 pm __________

So... are you hoping they stay curly or would you prefer they turn -er- "normal"?

I wish some of mine would keep the curl, but no!

I'm game either way. Smooth rexy velveteen lops are still pretty amazingly adorable, and the kids could show them for 4-H.
Curly lops would be OK with me too I'd try and make more of them. I wouldn't try and do it all myself though. If I had lines making curls that stuck, I'd get them to as many breeders as were interested so we could swap stock and share information.

I am sending this link to you in a PM, but for anyone else interested, there is an active Astrex bunch on FB that try to trade stock at https://www.facebook.com/groups/5929140 ... ?ref=br_tf

__________ Sun May 11, 2014 8:03 pm __________

I have PM'd DumansArk for you. She has been working with Astrex for a number of years and can probably tell you the most about the Astrex gene.

Thanks MSD! We have just recently spoken about these kits, but I would appreciate any info she might be willing to add to this thread!
I wasn't going to re-publish anything that was sent to me via PM without permission.

Actually, I hadn't even noticed they were odd... I wonder how long it would have taken me :?

You have permission to republish any bit about the Astrex that you need - thanks for being so considerate!!

And you DID notice they were odd -- when I saw your mention of their baggy skin & odd wrinkling that stayed I nearly choked (I was absentmindedly reading while dining -- ahhh the dangers of surfing RabbitTalk during mealtime! ). That's Astrex! And over the years I have noticed the pattern that only my very good ones have started out like that

 

[Zass]

You've already touched on the thin fur pads on the feet. It isn't in every line, and I only recently had it show up with a buck; while the rest of his siblings were normal, his feet were not. He reminded me of a nice show MR buck we had in 4H years ago. Solid flooring, wire floor with rest pads/boards; didn't matter. I loved his temperament, his color, his curl. But those feet. Sigh. With a gene pool this small, CULL HARD is the rule.

Entropion, where the eyelids turn inward (and the other condition, where they turn outward) is something that has been brought up on the Astrex boards.

A Canadian Rabbitry says her curliest lines decades in the making have curly toenails. Others say they look long and untrimmed which causes the curl. I'd hate to judge and then find out it really happens.

Baldie kits born in the winter can really struggle if they lose a lot of hair. They do great if born in the summer though, just like furless rabbits, they take the heat great.

Hmm, that is all I can think of for health issues.

__________ Sun May 11, 2014 7:52 pm __________

About culling hard & thin fur pads on the feet -- I meant that for my own rabbitry; it is something I have read about breeders working with (in order to keep the integrity of curl) and then selecting for the offspring that don't have footpad issues. I know a woman in California who imported some reeeally nice Astrex lines, and she is working on the feet in this manner. No reason to throw out babies with the bathwater if that is what you have to work with.

I wish I could hit the :thankyou: button more than once! The whole post actually.

And I agree, I wouldn't want this coat type or the sore hocks bred any further INTO velveteen lines either.
Yep yep...better to separate these does from velveteen lines and use them for my own experimental purposes...

Also, I'd like to mention, I hate facebook and everything about it. I will not give those crooks my personal information. I did make an account for my bunnies though, so I can look at the page.

 

[skysthelimit]

I have to go out and take a picture. I had one litter that was curly. I kept a buck, who is the current herd sire soon to be dethroned. He molted out to a very nice normal Rex coat, very plush, but he did not do that till he was 11 mos old, and the texture was off till then, so I only showed him once, with comments on bad texture. Those ones seem to have better density. In my case, I'm sure it is not Astrex, because he has been bred to two of his half sisters and his daughter, with no repeat of curly coats.

 

[akane]

I had curly coats from a rex x creme d'argent buck and checkered giant (bought at auction with no ped so who knows) x NZ does. I had no balding, hair, or skin issues in mine. I did have 1 kit born from I can't remember what combo but the same buck would have been involved who had a normal coat but lost hair in various places. I investigated every possible health problem and finally decided it was genetic. Most of my rabbits lost much of the curly when grown but some kept a little. Lacking space I sold them all when I got rid of my meat mutts. I don't know if I have any pics of them as adults.

 

[Zass]

There is a proposed genotype for the astrex breed that they are trying to create on that facebook page, but I honestly cannot tell if it is based around any facts or studies, or if it's pure speculation.

I have some guesses of my own:

There are very likely multiple genes or combinations of genes that can cause hair loss. At least one of them is or can be connected, or expressed in combination with the genes that cause curls or waves.

Whatever genes are causing the curls may be incompletely dominant, sort of like si silvering. Unknown properties or modifiers may cause it to express with just one copy.

There may be other genes that are required for us to see the curls expressed in an adult coat (the same way agouti A_ is requited for chinchilla cchd to express visually)

The above statement might be part of why it is considered very difficult to stabilize. If no one knows exactly what genes are required for expression, than breeding for it would be VERY hit-or-miss.

It is possible that the genes that cause the curls in adult coats might not even be the same mutation as the genes that cause many curly rex kits. As in, we may be working with more than one set of genes that can cause an "astrex affect."

My babies are 5 weeks now

and a closeup of the cuddlers

Er...so, some people say that the curly kits that grow into normal coats are MORE dense, and some say their coats are LESS dense. Kinda makes me suspect it may not be connected to density at all, and that the density factor has more to do with their individual lines than the presence of curls.

 

[skysthelimit]

So very true, isn't it? Which is why I advocate not breeding into normal coats to get more Rex. It seems that Rex has so many different modifiers in the coat to get the proper texture, it's sometimes hard to pinpoint when breeding two Rex (off the soap box). That's why I bred the Angora to the Silver Fox instead of Rex.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

MSD, have any of your curly kits grown in the choppy furred look at all once they were adults?

No, not really. Flurry looked "ripply" on the butt as an older junior...



...but eventually even that molted out:

 

[Zass]

MSD, do you have any pics of them as kits?

I found our pics of Mucky as 10 week old baby:
Yep, those are rumples. I remember worrying if she was going to smooth out. I thought maybe she just had more of the e-lop than than rex in her, and that was why the coat was rough. It was her curly whiskers that convinced me she was actually rex coated.

Here she is again, I wonder what her kits will look like at this age?

Here she is a couple weeks later with a standard rex buckling, I believe she's a few weeks older than him:

He looks...normal

 

[MamaSheepdog]

MSD, do you have any pics of them as kits?

I couldn't find any of Flurry, but here are some pics of Magma in chronological order. She is the one that matured to have such great density, which is surprising considering how sparse her coat looked when she was a kit.



Here she is with her brother- his fur was weird in that it grew in different directions, but he wasn't really wavy:



A little older:



And older still:

 

[Zass]

I was peeking around online and spotted someone mentioning that you shouldn't get show stock rex rabbits wet, because it will make their coats curl.
It makes me wonder...
My kits have always been very dry and clean.
I keep a close watch since they are kept about 6 feet from where I'm typing. Straw is cheap for me, and I clean cages daily.

But Mucky (living up to her namesake) did need a bit of cleaning last night. Her litterbox and grooming habits have been on the decline since she kindled. She's not on wire...these things happen...anyway. Took a peek, and yep.
Her recently washed bottom had gone curly. So...how does this factor in? Do all rex get curly when recently wet?

Kinda scares me, cause than, anyone could run a moist washcloth over a rex, and it would look like it has curls for a while.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

In the summer heat I mist my Rex with water all of the time. It is kind of wavy when wet, but as they groom and dry themselves it goes back to normal.

It might be different if you really soaked them because the hair will tend to clump together as it dries, and may hold that shape for a while... just as if you braid your hair when wet and let it dry it will be curly when you take the braid out.

I have no idea if this is accurate or not, but a lot of people caution about getting Rex really wet in the heat purportedly because the density of the fur holds the water and doesn't allow it to evaporate quickly enough, resulting in the water actually holding the heat.