Are these guys Torts or Something Else?

[ShotaInu]

Hello! Just trying to figure out what colour my grey girly is in order to pick out a buck to purchase for long term. Would be cool to know what her brother is for future reference too

Her Dad is a Chestnut Agouti Holland Lop, and Mom I believe is a Black Tort Lionhead

This is her with her brother, her as a baby and her mom the lionhead:

 

[Cosima]

I think the brother is a black tort and the sister is probably a lilac torts. the mother looks like a blue sable to me. the body is to dark to be a dilute tort imo.

 

[Cosima]

The chestnut dad makes no sense. Can you post a pic of him?

 

[Alaska Satin]

She looks like she might be a blue tort, although none of the pictures really show very well the parts you need to see. She does seem to have the shading on her nose, ears, feet and flanks, though obscured and lightened a bit by longer hair. A blue tort is <aaB_C_ddee>.

If she's a blue tort, that would mean that her chestnut sire carries a dilute gene, a self gene, and a non-extension gene, so <AaB_C_DdEe>.

The tort dam is already a self with two non-extension genes, but it would seem she also carries dilute, so <aaB_C_Ddee>.

Her brother looks like he may be a cream, but again, the angle of the photos isn't super helpful. A cream is a dilute non-extension agouti, so that would make sense: he'd get the gene for agouti from his sire, and a copy of both dilute and non-extension from both sire and dam. So the brother would be <AaB_C_ddee>

 

[ShotaInu]

I think the brother is a black tort and the sister is probably a lilac torts. the mother looks like a blue sable to me. the body is to dark to be a dilute tort imo.

The chestnut dad makes no sense. Can you post a pic of him?

Looking back at some photos It looks like I've mistaken the sire for the chestnut buck (dont have photo unfortunately) who was housed around the dam around the time of conception. The sire seems to look very similar to his daughter. Their parents are hobby farm bunnies so hard to know whos Dad besides looking at the colour. Sorry for confusion! Will try and get some better photos of the siblings tomorrow

 

[Alaska Satin]

Looking back at some photos It looks like I've mistaken the sire for the chestnut buck (dont have photo unfortunately) who was housed around the dam around the time of conception. The sire seems to look very similar to his daughter. Their parents are hobby farm bunnies so hard to know whos Dad besides looking at the colour. Sorry for confusion! Will try and get some better photos of the siblings tomorrow

If the sire is the one on the right, he looks like a lilac tort, <aabbC_ddee>
The daughter could be a lilac tort instead of a blue tort; her color is quite pale for blue, but I don't see the pinkish tone to her markings...however that could be an illusion of the photos.
If the sire is a tort (self) as well as the dam, the son can't be a cream (agouti); perhaps he's an even paler lilac tort.
But genetically, either the chestnut or the lilac tort could be the sire (depending on whether the son is a cream or not).
If you could get photos of them from the side, rather than straight on, it would be helpful.

 

[Cosima]

I confused the pic but a agree with @Alaska Satin .

 

[ShotaInu]

Sorry for the delay! I have a phone with a working camera now, so I'll go and grab some new pics and reply again below to save confusion

For starters I not only confused the buck, but also confused the doe. I don't know how since this one is significantly warmer than Butterscotch. Pic 1 & 2 I've attached are her and the litter my rabbits came from. She seems to be a Harlequinized Tort, though not sure of the colour maybe blue tort. Lionhead colours confuse me lol. The two kits on the top right are my 2. Falco (brother) shed out his snowballing, but Uda (grey girly) did not. Butterscotch does look like she's pinched, but I think that also may be because they're on a pellet only diet

Pic 3 is an extra photo of Flopsy. Not sure of his background, all I know is his littermate Mopsy next to him is a Black Tort. Pic 4 is an example of a Lilac Tort I found on a colour guide I've see Alaska Satin suggest in other threads. Seems like he could be a Lilac Tort just without the beige colouration on his head

Pic 5 is Butterscotch's Mom, Luna. She appears to be a magpie. She came from a colony farm so not a clue who sired that litter. Not sure if Butterscotch is one of the kits pictured or not, may be that one on the very bottom left. All these rabbits besides the 2 Lion x Lops above are not mine btw

 

[ladysown]

What? why would you think being pinched comes being on a pellet only diet? Being pinched is a body build issue and very narrow/pinched does should NOT be bred. Tons of rabbits are only fed a pelleted diet and that doesn't make them have genetic issues.

 

[ShotaInu]

Oh I'm not saying the pellet only per say is why she looks the way she does. I know meat rabbits are generally fed a pellet only diet and plump and healthy as can be. I think there may be several factors as to why the rabbits on that farm are so frail. They go on and off of hay so the flucuation in diet may be one of those factors is more what I meant. Should've worded it differently as I figured someone might say that, sorry!

Edit: Some factors: They don't always have pellet access throughout the day. They also don't have many things to chew on to keep their teeth align. One of the rabbits I've checked has pretty uneven teeth. They don't like the type of feed they are fed over other brands. They turn their nose up to it at times. Again to reiterate these are my Mother in law's rabbits I'm just observing. I was hoping if my girly does not have the genetic issues of her mother and takes after her father in build, to further breed out any narrow shoulders, pinched hips and etc

 

[ShotaInu]

Anywho I'm in no way here to try and bash my Mother in law as to reasons why her rabbits may be on the frailer side, they're very free and happy rabbits, but to learn about colours, alleles and genetics problems that occur in rabbits and breeding. I only mentioned as they're not at their best in these photos and when fattened up you cannot see the huge definition in the thighs, ribcage and etc. I'm not saying they don't have pinched hips, just that it's hard to tell when they're on the skinnier side here and not as round as usual. You can tell they have tight shoulders purely by looking at them of course

If my rabbits have genetic issues I couldn't or shouldn't attempt to breed out, I won't be breeding them and spaying/neutering instead. What photo angles should I take of my rabbits to determine if they have pinched hips? I can also definitely tell my buck takes after his mother in build from a birds eye view. Uda is a bit harder for me to tell because of how fluffy she is in the shoulders

I should also mention I was given two "bucks" (2021) and must have been pushing too hard upon my own inspections to tell whether Uda was a doe or not. Once they displayed what I believed at the time to be "aggressive behaviour" I separated them only to be greeted with 3 wriggling kits a month later (Dec 2021). One very large baby buck, twice the size of his littermates. Very thankful he didn't get stuck. One doe which looked to be a blue tort to me by the tan back and blue underbelly and one buck who came out identical to his mom, minus the snowballing he shed out. They are all separated and the 3 kits will be neutered and spayed

Sorry about the bad photos

Big Baby Buck (Calico) = Harlequinized?
Doe (Ava) - Blue Tort?
Double Mane Buck (Ulf) - Not sure, looked blue tort when born just slightly darker than doe on the back same as Mom as a kit

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Anywho I'm in no way here to try and bash my Mother in law as to reasons why her rabbits may be on the frailer side, they're very free and happy rabbits, but to learn about colours, alleles and genetics problems that occur in rabbits and breeding. I only mentioned as they're not at their best in these photos and when fattened up you cannot see the huge definition in the thighs, ribcage and etc. I'm not saying they don't have pinched hips, just that it's hard to tell when they're on the skinnier side here and not as round as usual. You can tell they have tight shoulders purely by looking at them of course

If my rabbits have genetic issues I couldn't or shouldn't attempt to breed out, I won't be breeding them and spaying/neutering instead. What photo angles should I take of my rabbits to determine if they have pinched hips? I can also definitely tell my buck takes after his mother in build from a birds eye view. Uda is a bit harder for me to tell because of how fluffy she is in the shoulders

I should also mention I was given two "bucks" (2021) and must have been pushing too hard upon my own inspections to tell whether Uda was a doe or not. Once they displayed what I believed at the time to be "aggressive behaviour" I separated them only to be greeted with 3 wriggling kits a month later (Dec 2021). One very large baby buck, twice the size of his littermates. Very thankful he didn't get stuck. One doe which looked to be a blue tort to me by the tan back and blue underbelly and one buck who came out identical to his mom, minus the snowballing he shed out. They are all separated and the 3 kits will be neutered and spayed

Sorry about the bad photos

Big Baby Buck (Calico) = Harlequinized?
Doe (Ava) - Blue Tort?
Double Mane Buck (Ulf) - Not sure, looked blue tort when born just slightly darker than doe on the back same as Mom as a kit

Why don't they have a nest? Where's the hay?

 

[ShotaInu]

Why don't they have a nest? Where's the hay?

Big ol pile of alfalfa hay and water dishes are off to the right out of the photo :^) They were an accidental litter due to misgendering and being siblings I hadn't thought about breeding them, so I didn't have a nesting box handy for them at that time. Instead I used two wooden hides I had on hand to block the kits from leaving the corner mama had decided to have them that she could hop over to get to them. They were born in an XL Livingworld and made sure they got lots of time out in their open to hop around. She definitely didn't pull enough fur, but I cranked the heat up in the garage that winter and regularly added shavings to try and keep em toasty

Edit: I worded that weirdly too. Being siblings I hadn't thought about breeding yet, cause I only had were siblings that I initially thought were bucks My bad I'm all over the place

 

[Alaska Satin]

What photo angles should I take of my rabbits to determine if they have pinched hips?

The best way we've found to identify pinched hips is to flip the rabbit over on its back with its head in your elbow, its hips supported by your hand. Let the rabbit relax, then note the orientation of the hind feet. They should be parallel to each other. If they form a "V" with the hocks close together and the toes farther apart, the rabbit is "pinched." If they are parallel but very close-set, the rabbit is "narrow in the hindquarters." The rabbit really does have to be relaxed, though, since they'll pull their hind feet in tightly if they're tense.

I'll see if I can find an example of a rabbit with pinched hindquarters, but here are two examples of wide-set, parallel hind feet:


Another way to tell that a rabbit is pinched is to observe it when it is posed. A pinched rabbit will have hind feet that are close together at the hock and stick out at the toes, rather than sitting parallel to the body. Here are a couple of photos that show it a little - the first is a bit pinched , the other has nice, parallel hind feet:

Big ol pile of alfalfa hay and water dishes are off the the right out of the photo :^) They were an accidental litter due to misgendering and being siblings I hadn't thought about breeding them, so I didn't have a nesting box handy for them at that time. Instead I used two wooden hides I had on hand to block the kits from leaving the corner mama had decided to have them that she could hop over to get to them. They were born in an XL Livingworld and made sure they got lots of time out in their open to hop around. She definitely didn't pull enough fur, but I cranked the heat up in the garage that winter and regularly added shavings to try and keep em toasty

You obviously did a good job - they look like they are very healthy! We had an indoor Mini Rex that built nests just like that. She ate all the hay and didn't pull much fur for her nests when she was living inside. Interestingly, she pulled tons of fur when she was living outside. Smart bunny.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Here are a couple more photos. First is of good, wide, parallel hind feet on an adult Satin:



Here are slightly narrow but still nicely parallel hind feet on a Polish (so I would call him a little bit "narrow" rather than "pinched") :

 

[RabbitsOfTheCreek]

Big ol pile of alfalfa hay and water dishes are off to the right out of the photo :^) They were an accidental litter due to misgendering and being siblings I hadn't thought about breeding them, so I didn't have a nesting box handy for them at that time. Instead I used two wooden hides I had on hand to block the kits from leaving the corner mama had decided to have them that she could hop over to get to them. They were born in an XL Livingworld and made sure they got lots of time out in their open to hop around. She definitely didn't pull enough fur, but I cranked the heat up in the garage that winter and regularly added shavings to try and keep em toasty

Edit: I worded that weirdly too. Being siblings I hadn't thought about breeding yet, cause I only had were siblings that I initially thought were bucks My bad I'm all over the place

Ah, alright

 

[judymac]

The best way we've found to identify pinched hips is to flip the rabbit over on its back with its head in your elbow,

Thank you, this is so helpful. I can identify what the Standard of Perfection wants in the way of a given color pattern, and I can work with hair/fiber texture and type. I can check over the spine for body condition. But I have no clue how to evaluate the body. When judges talk about shoulder and such, I have no idea what they are looking for. What things are you looking for when evaluating body, and how do you do that?

 

[Alaska Satin]

Thank you, this is so helpful. I can identify what the Standard of Perfection wants in the way of a given color pattern, and I can work with hair/fiber texture and type. I can check over the spine for body condition. But I have no clue how to evaluate the body. When judges talk about shoulder and such, I have no idea what they are looking for. What things are you looking for when evaluating body, and how do you do that?

I am glad it is helpful!

Type involves looking at (or for angoras, feeling) the shape of the rabbit and judging the relationship of the parts to each other, to achieve what's called "balance." In compact and commercial types, smoothness in the transition from one area of the body to another is ideal. In a compact especially, the body looks almost spherical, with the body being short and with relatively little difference from shoulder to midsection to hindquarter, when viewed either from the top or the side. A commercial type, being significantly bigger, has more length than a compact, and usually a bit more of a taper in width from shoulder to midsection to hindquarter, again when viewed either from the top or the side. In both types, it is generally desired that the width of the body section match the depth of the section, i.e. the shoulders/midsection/hindquarters are each as wide as they are tall.

English Angora SOP only has 15 points out of 100 on body, but it still describes a compact body type. Most compact SOPs have points given to body type without dividing the points preferentially among hindquarters/midsection/shoulders. That's a little different than a commercial type, which gives hindquarters the most points, the midsection and shoulders having slightly less. Commercial type is much more uniform across breeds, while compact breeds vary in the desired depth and amount of taper from shoulder to hindquarter.

Still, compact and commercial types share a lot in common, so this post on assessing depth and depth of loin on commercial type should be helpful to start: Crossbreeding meat rabbits? Yes or no? (Nov 9, 2022). I intended to follow up with a discussion/examples of assessing loin width, as well as midsection and shoulders, but haven't done that yet. I'll move that task closer to the top of the list.

E.A.s are to have a very slight taper from shoulders to hindquarters, meaning they are almost as wide at the shoulders as the hips - that's a bit different from some other compacts and from commercial types. But in any compact, there should be essentially no shoulder area per se, rather the rise of the back should start directly behind the ears, with no space between ears and curve of the back, no break between shoulders and midsection. Posing the rabbit correctly is important in assessing type. Here are two rabbits with long shoulders, the second also having what I'd call weak or narrow shoulders, plus a third doe that did not have a long shoulder but could be made to look like it when posed improperly:




The thing about angoras is that because of their dense wool, they can be harder to assess by feel and nearly impossible to assess visually. The best angora judges I know judge the wool first, and only then move onto assessing body type, since it involves kind of manhandling the wool to feel the body underneath. (In fact English Angora judging often barely brushes the surface of body type, since wool accounts for so much of the points, making type more of a tie-breaker.) But you can see from the first two photos above, that if you put your hand over the top of the shoulder and moved it back towards the hindquarters, on a rabbit with a weak, narrow or long shoulder you would feel a distinct break or difference between the shoulder and the midsection. Ideally it would be smooth both from the top and from the side, with no discernible break between the two areas.

Here are examples of properly posed animals with excellent shoulders: