Anyone know how I could donate rabbits for dissection?

[Sagebrush]

With the Velveteen rabbits what if you used a different lop and rex breeds? Would the issues still persist as heavily as they are now? For instance what if one was to use a Holland lop buck to cover a rex doe, then breed the kits back to parents till you get the fur and ears again? Though temperament is still one of the important criteria to work on.

 

[Zass]

With the Velveteen rabbits what if you used a different lop and rex breeds? Would the issues still persist as heavily as they are now? For instance what if one was to use a Holland lop buck to cover a rex doe, then breed the kits back to parents till you get the fur and ears again? Though temperament is still one of the important criteria to work on.

I think that was actually proposed at one time,. There is some problem with it not being different enough to count for a new breed.

I don't really care about the rex, or the lop part. :lol:
I just liked the idea of them because they were supposed to have the sweet personality of e-lops without having difficult ears, and be small enough to be good house pets.

 

[Dood]

Rexed Hollands are a breed in progress - they are called "Plush lops"

I'm personally not a fan of the short rex fur paired with big round heads and tiny ears

I much prefer the outline of the Velveteens with a streamlined head and mandolin body shape and until you've lived with an ELop you really cannot understand their Labrador like temperament - they have THE MOST dog like personalities of any breed of rabbit I've owned in 40+ years - no other breed even comes close

 

[Zass]

I tend to agree with Dood, but I'm aware that it's just personal taste, you know?


The e-lop temper really is definitely something worth getting and keeping, they really are special, but I'm going to go ahead and argue against the mandolin body. (not that that trait is going to change either)

Mucky with her somewhat more compact body IS much easier to hold then the v-lops I have had with a more exaggerated mandolin shape, and these guys are the only bunnies who climb into my outstretched hands and wait to be picked up. They just love their lap time.

 

[alforddm]

until you've lived with an ELop you really cannot understand their Labrador like temperament - they have THE MOST dog like personalities of any breed of rabbit I've owned in 40+ years - no other breed even comes close

That is an interesting observation. With the domestic fox program they found that after breeding for gentleness over many generations floppy ears started to emerge. It may be that the mutations that result from floppy ears also have some effect on personality/responsiveness/gentleness. It does seem that dogs breeds with floppy ears tend to be the most relaxed in their interaction with people. I find it very interesting that the same correlation may apply to rabbits as well.

 

[Zass]

Not all floppy eared rabbits are nice, and I've also seen and heard of lots of people nailed by floppy eared dogs too.

I suspect the floppy ears and domestic looking traits from foxes had more to do with inbreeding and what happens when one stops selecting to maintain physical consistency. Choosing only for temper instead of looks would allow things that would otherwise be culled to persist into the nest generation.

Even in wild populations, anomalies are common, and they are much more common in closed off populations with limited gene pools. (you wouldn't believe what I've seen trappers bring in) In nature they tend to be culled, but in domestic breeding programs...we have a way of favoring anything deviant.

Also, english lops are one of the oldest and arguably purest domestic rabbit breeds. A one generation outcross would really set a breeder back in the ears department, so there is less incentive to try it than there is with, say...commercial breeds.
That purity and the amount of time it's been maintained probably has more to do with it than the lopping.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Lop

 

[alforddm]

Not all floppy eared rabbits are nice, and I've also seen and heard of lots of people nailed by floppy eared dogs too.

I didn't mean to imply that ALL floppy eared rabbit/dogs/foxes were pleasant and more relaxed, after all with any population you will get variation, but rather that their seems to be a correlation between the two. I agree that the evidence is somewhat circumstantial but I find it fascinating none the less.

 

[Zass]

It is a fascinating study, but I'm afraid it is more of a demonstration of inbreeding than one of traits linked to domestic personality type.

Another mutation that is frequently mentioned in the same domestic fox study is the piebald coat color.

Due to the increasing amount of isolated breeding populations and historic removal of predator species in the US, we are now are seeing an increased amount of pied animals in wild populations.

Just google pied deer, pied otter, even pied squirrel.

 

[alforddm]

I knew I had read more on the effects of domestication but couldn't remember were I had found it.


The “Domestication Syndrome” in Mammals: A Unified Explanation Based on Neural Crest Cell Behavior and Genetics
http://www.genetics.org/content/197/3/795.full

 

[Zass]

alforffm, you are wonderful at finding these

In this article, we have argued that all the facets of the domestication syndrome can be traced to mild neural crest cell deficits. In Figure 2, we summarize our proposal, depicting the routes by which those deficits can lead to the different traits of the syndrome.

They don't mention neotenization theories directly, but do describe some of the various effects associated with it. For example: increasing the socialization window, shortening of the muzzle, and decreased tooth size among them.


And...it doesn't confirm or deny anything, just theorizes. Is there any indication that the proposed studies were carried out yet? I say yet because I do hope that they will be.

It makes me wonder why the "full suite" of genetic changes are not commonly expressed across various breeds though. Because under that theory, the mutations would continue to spontaneously occur at a vary high rate in every domestic breed. Every now and then, someone would get a spontaneously broken patterned Lilac or something.

Or maybe we are?

It's possible that the constant culling needed to keep unwanted traits out of pure domestic breeds could be partially associated with spontaneous mutations that become heritable.

It pretty much spells out that domestic animals would also frequently suffer some negative spontaneous mutations that become heritable along with ones that are neutral, like coat color changes.

 

[alforddm]

Is there any indication that the proposed studies were carried out yet?

To the best of my knowledge these have not been done. The fox domestication project is the only one I know.

It makes me wonder why the "full suite" of genetic changes are not commonly expressed across various breeds though. Because under that theory, the mutations would continue to spontaneously occur at a vary high rate in every domestic breed. Every now and then, someone would get a spontaneously broken patterned Lilac or something.

These are occurring. There have been several occurrences of spontaneous white patterns in horses as well as dogs in just the past few years.

Puchilingui a registered Thoroughbred was born in 1984 and is the source of the W5 white pattern mutation that is found in Thoroughbreds.
Frankie a registered German Shepherd was born in 2000 and founder of the Panda Shepherd line. In Frankie's case parentage verification did occur.
A white patterned Weimaraner was born not to many years ago that was also parentage verified and found to the be result of a new mutation.

These are just the ones I can think of off the top of my head. There are more. One of the interesting things about many of these is that are related to the KIT gene which is apparently more prone to mutation. It also controls pigment distribution from the neural crest. So, could the apparently increased mutation rate of the KIT gene be directly related to domestication? It will be interesting to find out. <br /><br /> -- Sun Jan 11, 2015 1:09 pm -- <br /><br /> Not all coat color mutations have occurred after domestication, however. The Leopard Complex mutation in horses has been found in ancient wild horse remains.

 

[Sagebrush]

All of those are very interesting! Heck I learned something new today =) thank you very much.

I was looking at maybe a standard rex and the mini lop as a base for those ears. I love how my rex, from MSD's lines, is such a sweet girl that wants to climb into my arms any chance she can get. I just feel that the Elops ears are just to long, that they would be far too easy to damage.

 

[JenerationX]

You people always make me have to use the brain. :lol:

I could care less about the fur, it's the shape of the vlops that I like. I'm not a fan of the holland or mini lop shape for some reason. They're adorable of course, but I like the elop shaped head and ear set. It's the size of the rabbit and length of the ears that would keep me from considering an elop for a house bunny. Vlops sound like the perfect pet breed if the health issues can ever be worked out

 

[BirchLane]

A well bred EL should NOT have fragile ears. Period.

As a whole, ELs are extremely good at staying out of their own way and can play quite well without stepping on or tripping over themselves. (You should see one of my does run around the basement with her ears flapping behind her like banners in the wind! Too stinkin' cute!) In the event that they do step on themselves, their ears should be of an adequate texture and thickness to prevent nicks or tears. My very best buck has a 26" ear span at 6 months old and his ears are comparable to the thickness of my beagle's. I don't have any calipers on hand, but I'd guess that they're just under 1/8" at the tips, and maybe even a little over 1/8" nearer to the skull.

I'm the kind of person who appreciates the judicious use of crossbreeding if it has a purpose. For example, I have found some bloodlines to have incredible ear length, but to be a bit lacking in terms of bone density. I've crossed those lines with Flemish Giants (gasp!) to improve the thickness of bone in their kits. Sure, I have to do a little work to get back to showable ears and a full pedigree, but it's totally worth it to me to have stout, structurally correct rabbits. Maybe it's just that I've always put health over a "pure" heredity, but I don't understand why anyone wouldn't want to make an educated outcross with their animals if it means having better stock in the long-run.