Anyone know how I could donate rabbits for dissection?

[Zass]

It seems like the velveteen kits have swollen lymph nodes throughout their bodies. I can fell some near their hips, behind their forearms, and behind their jaws.

(At least, I now know they are lymph nodes)

Since I do not believe they have a pathogen, like tularemia, that can cause swollen lymph nodes...I suspect a genetic condition, perhaps Lymphoma.

None of my meat rabbits have ever had these problems. I would know. I eat 99% of what I produce, and tend to look over everything very closely.

There has been one kit in each of my past litters with a similar condition. This time, 5 out of 6 of my current v-lop kits have multiple swollen lymph nodes. I have it connected to the "fading" I sometimes experience with them. This batch isn't struggling with digestion, but they are growing very, very slowly.

That makes for 3 different bucks, from 3 different states (PA, OH, and IN)
And some amount of sick kits in each litter for a condition I believe to very likely genetic.

I'm aware that my doe's mother died from what a vet decided was a "nutrient deficiency" disease. They had her on some kind of shot...I don't know. Never got the whole story, but the doe died despite veterinary care.

I've decided that I'm going to euthanize this batch of potentially suffering kits and put Mucky into permanent retirement.

She is, thankfully, in good health and a wonderful pet. It's unfortunate that I will not be able to make more bunnies like her for others to enjoy.

Anyway, I was hoping that I could donate the kits to a veterinary school to possibly help further research (or at least fuel some interest) in furthering study of rabbit diseases. Maybe even get lucky and get some feedback.

Unfortunately, all I can find online is anti-dissection propaganda.

Does any one know of a program that might accept dissection specimens?

 

[alforddm]

Maybe contact the vet schools in your state?

 

[Zass]

The closest one would probably be Cornell in NY, but I'm having a hard time finding who I might contact.

Considering how AR groups can be, I'm guessing the information isn't going to be publicly posted.

 

[alforddm]

Have you seen this page? Not sure if that would be the right place to contact but it couldn't hurt.

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/baker/giving/

 

[JenerationX]

I've decided that I'm going to euthanize this batch of potentially suffering kits and put Mucky into permanent retirement.

She is, thankfully, in good health and a wonderful pet. It's unfortunate that I will not be able to make more bunnies like her for others to enjoy.

I wish vlops were more established and didn't seem to have so many issues. They seem like such a nice mix of a size and ears and fur. It seems like every discussion I find online there's some issues with everyone's lines. (Some aren't as forthcoming with issues but you see people that purchased from them experiencing the balding and what you call fading.)

Do you think the problem came from the original mini rex and elop that were bred or something that shows up only after several generations? Too many people culling based on form instead of health? (or not culling enough period)

As far as donating for dissection, I'd try U-Penn. I know that Cornell up here sometimes does pathology and genetic research and accept those animals as donations. Edited: Yep... looks like you're on that path already.

 

[Zass]

JenX, do you remember that discussion we all were having about what would happen if breeders stopped selecting for health?

I think there is some of that in play here.

I can link a few issues, like sore hocks and kit balding, to the astrex genes.

There was a study that even stated that "wirehair rabbits" were predisposed to Lymphoma.
Anyone have a clue as to what a wirehair rabbit is, or was?

 

[alforddm]

I found this on wirehaired rabbits and it has a picture. https://books.google.com/books?id=gCPUe ... it&f=false

 

[Celice]

you might try the college or university. it doesn't have to be only a vet school only that they have a class in veterinary care

 

[cmfarm]

How long have people been working on this breed? Maybe it would be better to just start over to get rid of the bad genetics.

 

[Zass]

alforddm, that preview was saying some interesting things about hairless, furless, and other mutations before it got to the wirehair, BUT then it was missing a couple pages!!!! It's a shame it's a $60 book...

cmfarm, there have been breeders working on them since the early 90's.

I know that a lot of breeders are in and back out of them quickly, but I don't think any major breeder involved with development is going to scrap their stock and start over.

-- Sat Jan 10, 2015 9:22 pm --

Back to the book on rabbit genetics, on page 201, it states that timidity is dominant (and due to more than one factor) I might have to get myself a copy, and save some time.

 

[alforddm]

Google tailors the book preview to your search so if you try to search for some of the other topics from that book you "might" get the other pages.

 

[dangerbunny]

I would try calling the nearest vet school and asking, they likely don't have it on their websites.

How frustrating, sorry you are running into issues with them, they are so cute.

 

[Zass]

I was hoping someone on here might have known someone who was directly involved...that kind of thing.

It's always so much easier than playing phone tag with a major institution and trying to get the right person on the other end of the line.

 

[JenerationX]

How long have people been working on this breed? Maybe it would be better to just start over to get rid of the bad genetics.

That's what I was thinking... but given the length of time it's been worked on..

It sounds like the COD needs to be in the hands of someone who will cull, cull, cull, and cull again for health rather than ear length. It's highly unlikely that this stuff just suddenly showed up out of the blue in a single litter... so somebody bred a doe and buck that they knew were passing on undesirable traits and sold off the litters as good breeding stock. It's sad that this happens in all animals.. but it does. It makes finding a reputable breeder very difficult.

It's sad that health issues rather than just working on conformation and coat happened to you Zass. On the other hand, it's nice to see someone who's responsible enough to do whatever they have to and keep those issues from being passed on.

The saddest part is that Mucky sounds like a near perfect doe as far as temperament and mothering skills. It's awful to not be able to use an animal you really like.

 

[Zass]

Theoretically, I could mail them as frozen specimens anywhere in the country, if I could just find someone in a medical field who had an interest.


On the upside my mix breed MEAT rabbits are as healthy as mules. :roll:

I'll be making sure that none of the v-lop cross kits make it into my mixed gene pool.

 

[Dood]

I was hoping someone on here might have known someone who was directly involved...that kind of thing.

It's always so much easier than playing phone tag with a major institution and trying to get the right person on the other end of the line.

There is no practical application for Velveteen lops with an unknown, but possibly genetic health issue :shrug: As you know - the problem could be solved by culling and OPEN and HONEST discussion about the health issues of the various breeds - I highly suspect the problem might also be in English Lops which are very rare, have an extreamly small gene pool and very few breeders because find it hard to believe that out of the multitude of Mini Rex out there that the Velveteen breeders had the bad luck in picking one with the curl genes as their foundation stock :shock: but this is just my opinion

I doubt anyone would be willing to spend grant money on such a project. Also the paperwork for animal studies, even non invasive ones like behaviour studies, is a NIGHTMARE

I think your best chance is to canvas genetics and endocrine departments for any interested parties :shrug: hopefully a grad student looking for a thesis topic will express interest

 

[Zass]

I was hoping someone on here might have known someone who was directly involved...that kind of thing.

It's always so much easier than playing phone tag with a major institution and trying to get the right person on the other end of the line.

There is no practical application for Velveteen lops with an unknown, but possibly genetic health issue :shrug: As you know - the problem could be solved by culling and OPEN and HONEST discussion about the health issues of the various breeds - I highly suspect the problem might also be in English Lops which are very rare, have an extreamly small gene pool and very few breeders because find it hard to believe that out of the multitude of Mini Rex out there that the Velveteen breeders had the bad luck in picking one with the curl genes as their foundation stock :shock: but this is just my opinion

I doubt anyone would be willing to spend grant money on such a project. Also the paperwork for animal studies, even non invasive ones like behaviour studies, is a NIGHTMARE

I think your best chance is to canvas genetics and endocrine departments for any interested parties :shrug: hopefully a grad student looking for a thesis topic will express interest

Eh, no general interest in "free pathological specimens with unknown illness" for existing classes? Maybe I was spoiled in high school. :?
Living in a heavy hunting and fishing area, it was common for students to bring in whatever was in season for dissection. Fish, deer hearts, you name it.
I would have thought that veterinary students would have to dissect a good variety of animals to prepare them for surgeries, and known pathological specimens might be more interesting than meat fryers.

I didn't want to offer them to a local high school however, since they are so darn cute.
I imagine that might create a lot of problems for certain kids and their parents.

You hit the nail on the head about v-lop breeders Dood. Some of the ones who keep english lops like to blame problems on the MR blood, and those who are less familiar with e-lops are more inclined to blame that influence.

They don't all have astrex genes, I think the east coast stock tends to have more than the west coast stock, but...it's probably all about to change.

 

[cmfarm]

Try calling up your state vet, I bet he/she can lead in the right direction.

 

[Sagebrush]

My Grandfather is the Assistant Dean for UC Davis medical. I can try talking with him about donating your rabbits to the vet department. I am not promising anything but I will try talking to him once he gets back from his conference. Will be about a week. <br /><br /> -- Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:39 pm -- <br /><br /> Something else I just thought of is what about donating them to the Gross Anatomy department at your local University? When my Grandmother taught it, several years ago...., they used rats because they couldn't get enough cadavers for her classes.

 

[Zass]

There's an idea Sagebrush You know, my grandmother donated her own body.
I'll probably do the same. I wonder which university she ended up at? Pen state would be closest...

-- Sun Jan 11, 2015 2:21 am --

On the other topic. It seems like velveteens are often carrying the WORST genetic traits from their parent breeds.

The wry tail definitely comes from e-lops, and some very specific lines. Only one buck I've seen had it, and he came from the same place BH's rabbits with the twisted tails came from. That buck also had an earwax issue.
I've read that e-lops and velveteens can both have ear infection problems, but I've yet to see more than excessive wax. Definitely an e-lop trait.

I had that problem solved the moment that particular buck left my barn, and none of his kits were saved.

The sore hocks are mostly a side effect of rex unfortunately. The really soft coated (aka astrex carrying) ones have all had it.
Still, without the rexing, I don't think we would see the sore hocks, and it's something that is bound to turn up in any rexed breed.

I was moving towards better foot fur with my new guy with the good feet who fathered these kits.

Expect to see more balding kits, just not from me.
It's being said all over the place that those ones "have the best fur" and many breeders are actively working towards them thinking that they are getting some kind of amazing genetic shortcut towards better rex coats.

I'd like to point out that some velveteen breeders have kits that temporarily bald, but are NOT CURLY. Making me wonder just how many genes are involved with that.