Another clue (harmful v-lop genes)

[Zass]

To re-cap:
My velveteen lop girl Mucky has had 3 litters, with three different velveteen lop bucks.
One was her father. (known curl carrier)
Once was with a Journey home velveteen (only JH rabbits on pedigree, I was told that buck was curly as a kit).
and one was from a rabbitry in Michigan, with only one JH rabbit far back on pedigree, and not the same name as any of the JH rabbits on the other bucks. No curl as a kit, not known to ever throw curly kits.

I'd like to point out the unpedigreed Mucky still has better hips than any of those high priced bucks. She has her weak points too.

But, anyway, this post not about that.

Each and every v-lop litter produced kits with badly swollen lymph nodes. Bad enough that around 50% of kits she had in each litter were terminally culled for heath. (There were some unusual digestive complaints too, but that may have been coincidence.)

For reference, Mucky displayed excellent nesting and mothering skills, and
none of my meat does had ever produced a kit with such a condition.

Each of those bucks was also bred with one or two meat does, and they still never produced any kits with swollen nodes. I know because I butchered all of them, and it's not the kind of thing you would miss when processing..

During the coarse of her three litters, Mucky also nursed several foster kits and I frequently borrowed her ample milk supply to give smaller meat kits from larger litters a boost.

None of the foster kits ever displayed any swollen nodes. I processed them too.

From her final litter, one velveteen lop buckling who had displayed slightly swollen nodes as a kit was kept. He seemed to outgrow the condition, and displays the same health and hardiness his mother enjoys. (Energetic, and never ever having any other health or digestive complaints.)

A couple months ago I bred that v-lop kit, Sushi to a senior silver fox doe with a long history of throwing perfectly healthy kits. (For meat mutts)

At 5 week now, I think. large swollen lymph nodes can be felt in some of the kits. Right on time with the swollen nodes in the purebred velveteens.

I realize that swollen lymph nodes are only a symptom, and still I have no idea what it's a symptom of.

There have been hints that it may be a genetic susceptibility to lymphoma, but so far, I've yet to allow any rabbit with badly swollen glands to live long enough to see it really develop, and I can't afford to pay a vet to really look at these guys.

I believe that we are seeing the result an autumnal dominant genetic trait. Something that takes only one copy of the gene to produce, and that isn't sex linked.

So I'm thinking 50% of all kits produced by either rabbit will develop or at least be able to pass on this condition.

It's easy enough to simply never breed any velveteens who have it, and thus remove it from the pool entirely, instead of continuing to breed it in and having to euthanize so many of the most adorable and sweet kits on the planet.

I refuse to get any more v-lop does too, since Mucky is like family. She gets to stay forever, and Sushi is going to get neutered as soon as I can come up with the funds and find a vet I'd trust.

__________ Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:34 pm __________

Pictures, to display exactly why the velveteens were so hard for me to euthanize. These things would groom me, and fall asleep in my lap. They are the nicest and most people oriented rabbits I've ever had.

The curl and kit balding genetics certainly do complicate things!!!
For reference there too, Sushi was neither a curly kit, nor one who any kind of displayed kit balding. His father only ever threw curly kits with Mucky, never with other does, so I was told. That buck also had a much coarser coat then v-lop bucks I'd felt that carried the genes that caused curliness.
[album]2899[/album][album]2786[/album][album]2692[/album][album]2589[/album]

__________ Wed Jul 29, 2015 3:38 pm __________

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[Dood]

Wow :shock:

and RATS

I know it might go in one ear and out the other okeeye: but are you planning to share this finding with the VLop (and Elop) community?

Maybe ask someone at ARBA head quarters if there's anything they can do?

Maybe I'm over reacting :shrug: Peanuts are "acceptable losses" in dwarf breeds and besides - Mucky and Sushi are healthy and happy - just 90% of their kits die :fainting:

 

[Zass]

Wow :shock:

and RATS

I know it might go in one ear and out the other okeeye: but are you planning to share this finding with the VLop (and Elop) community?

I've been talking about it all along to others, but I'm not sure I'm very popular with the v-lop community, what with going against current leadership and telling breeders that kit balding is a BAD thing. :roll:

Maybe ask someone at ARBA head quarters if there's anything they can do?

Maybe I'm over reacting :shrug: Peanuts are "acceptable losses" in dwarf breeds and besides - Mucky and Sushi are healthy and happy - just 90% of their kits die :fainting:

I dunno, I've never let them die from the swollen gland issue, I've euthanized everyone except Sushi and a few kits that never seemed to have any issue were sold. 5 kits total left here, I think.
The others were suffering. The glads were swollen up hugely, enough to disfigure the rabbits, and they displayed signs that they were sensitive to touch. From an animal that hides it's pain, that's enough of a sign for me.


I have heard hints of other velveteens in the area (from a shelter worker actually) With large and proportionately incurable abscesses on her body, which might be the developed form of the disease.

When I mentioned lymphoma, the shelter worker said yea fast, and then did a double take (like how the heck did I guess that???). She didn't say anything else about it..


Lymphoma is supposedly common in Europe but not in the US. I wonder, do Canadian plush lops ever suffer the condition??

I've been wondering if it's possible that someone used cp-lop in her bloodline..

 

[FourRingCircus]

That is interesting, yet so sad . I don't know much about vlops, or the issues you are speaking of, so this might be a dumb question, but is it a well known issue? Something that's somewhat pushed under the rug?

 

[MaggieJ]

Zass, the genetics of all this are beyond me - I've always specialized in meat mutts - but I just wanted to say that I really feel for you in this situation. It is so sad when these kinds of problems occur and I really admire you for facing up to them in a responsible way. (Not that I'd expect anything less from "our Zass.")

Hang in there, kiddo. (((HUGS)))

 

[Zass]

That is interesting, yet so sad . I don't know much about vlops, or the issues you are speaking of, so this might be a dumb question, but is it a well known issue? Something that's somewhat pushed under the rug?

I'd like to think it's an uncommon condition, maybe even a recent mutation that hasn't spread too far around the gene pool??? I really hope so.

None of the other velveteen bucks ever thew swollen node kits with my meat does, and that includes Mucky's father.

If Mucky's mother's line was one of the few that had it, and it doesn't get too far, GOOD.
It would really help if I'd have ever gotten her pedigree to see what lines she's out of.
We really looked for it.
Her breeder actually had me over helping look for Mucky's parent's pedigrees, she's a school teacher and very well organized. It's a shame the pedigrees had been misplaced and were not with all the other paperwork she had for her dogs and goats.

She did tell me that the buck was up from Florida.

All I know about Mucky's mother is that she could not maintain her body weight, and that she was routinely given some sort of vitamin shot by a vet, and only ever produced 2 litters before dying of some unknown disease.

I didn't think much of it at first, since vets failing to effectively diagnose or treat rabbit illnesses is a rather common theme. It was only later that I thought it might be connected to something genetic in the line.

I've heard from other east coast breeders that velveteens are extremely hard to get healthy litters from, but was told no details. :shrug:

Getting the DETAILS out of these people is next to impossible

No breeder really wants to admit that there may be something genetically wrong with their stock, as if implying such would make their line or their breed undesirable to other breeders, and for all I know, maybe it would.

I was going to breed Mucky to Mystery, the magpie harlequin, to see if she would produce swollen-node kits when bred to a non-velveteen buck, since it had only been purebred v-lops that had developed the condition.

Sushi's litter has rendered that unnecessary IMO, since he has demonstrated that non-purebred kits to someone other than Mucky can also experience it, there is now strong enough antecedental evidence that it's caused by a dominant genetic trait.

I realize about 10 litters to various rabbits(only 3 of them purebred velveteen) still doesn't prove or disprove anything..
But I really think all this evidence point to Mucky having passed the gene to her son, who manages to keep the condition in remission, like his mother, but will probably always throw 50% swollen node kits.

They have been the only two rabbit ever in this place to produce kits with the condition.

All of the other freely exposed rabbits and rabbits bred to other v-lops here serve as a control group.

My husband was adamantly against re-breeding Mucky, since he's the one who actually does the dispatching, and he absolutely hates it as much as we do. It's not like they are big enough to eat when it occurs...you know??? And they experience such unpleasantness..

So anyway, I'm very glad to accept what we have here, and let their bloodline end.

The 5 kits that went on to new homes or other breeders may or may not carry the gene. (2 went to the breeder who initially sold me Mucky.)

If I'm right, 50% of her babies would have had it, but there was probably less of a chance than that for the ones I sold to have it, because I never sold any that had ever had swollen nodes while here. I certainly euthanized more them 50% of her babies.
So it would have to have been one that got past me, or fought it off/put it in remission before ever having shown any signs. All but one person knew I was having issues with the kits, and what those issues were.

Zass, the genetics of all this are beyond me - I've always specialized in meat mutts - but I just wanted to say that I really feel for you in this situation. It is so sad when these kinds of problems occur and I really admire you for facing up to them in a responsible way. (Not that I'd expect anything less from "our Zass.")

Hang in there, kiddo. (((HUGS)))

.


Thanks Maggie J!!! The meat mutts certainly are easier to breed and manage!!! The harlequins have been fantastic for me in temper, fecundity, and health too. I'll just be happy to have two good v-lop pets.
(Especially if I can get Sushi moved back in with his mother.)
I'll be ready to prevent any suffering in case their bodies ever succumb to the condition they are carrying...whatever it may be.

Maybe if that ever happens, we'll be in a better financial position and be able to pay a vet or lab to really look them over.
(Speaking of which, I have a job interview tomorrow!!) <br /><br /> __________ Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:41 pm __________ <br /><br /> Also of note: All of this kinda points to me having been on the wrong track in one important area.
It seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the curl genetics.

 

[MaggieJ]

Good luck with the job interview tomorrow, Zass! Hope it pans out for you and turns out to be a job you'd want.

:good-luck: :good-luck: :good-luck:

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Zass,

I am both sad and happy that this has happened to you.

Sad because you have had to cull so many sweet kits, but happy that you are dedicated enough to document the health issues with this breed.

I have spoken to some of the west coast breeders and they do not report the health issues you have seen. Whether their stock is healthy and free from the problems you have encountered or they simply wont admit to them I don't know.

Either way, I respect you for bringing these issues to the attention of breeders everywhere.

The Velveteen Lops seem to be a perfect pet rabbit temperament-wise, so hopefully this mysterious illness can be identified and eradicated from the gene pool.

 

[Zass]

Zass,

I am both sad that and happy that this has happened to you.

Sad because you have had to cull so many sweet kits, but happy that you are dedicated enough to document the health issues with this breed.

I have spoken to some of the west coast breeders and they do not report the health issues you have seen. Whether their stock is healthy and free from the problems you have encountered or they simply wont admit to them I don't know.

Either way, I respect you for bringing these issues to the attention of breeders everywhere.

The Velveteen Lops seem to be a perfect pet rabbit temperament-wise, so hopefully this mysterious illness can be identified and eradicated from the gene pool.

Thanks MSD.

I knew Sushi would have had to be a carrier if it was genetic, since he'd had the slightly swollen nodes as a kit, but I needed to see if he'd have it go into remission(it did), and I needed to see if he passed it directly to his kits too.(he did)

If the rabbit world is lucky it would be only my rabbits that were ever affected... but I couldn't overlook the possibility that someone else might stumble across something similar. Maybe even in another breed or even in a mutt line down the road.

Or maybe even in a very valuable line someday.
If my assessment is correct...a line with this condition could definitely still be saved.

That is assuming it's a dominant trait that can be detected in a noticeable way (I can feel the nodes in several parts of the body with my hands.)
Only 50% of the kits would ever inherit it. I don't know what would happen if a rabbit was homozygous for it (had two copies) but I think that would be quite rare to have genes like that and survive to adulthood. :?
(Theoretically, breeding Mucky and Sushi together could produce some, but, I wouldn't know which was which anyway..)
Anyway, swollen node kits out of a known carrier would have to be euthanized.

Then, one would test breed those kits that had never had any swollen nodes with clean, proven-genetic-disorder-free meat mutts, or whatever other clean rabbits they might have around. Several litters would be best.

If the stock threw any swollen node kits at all, the kits and their parents would be culled.

If a rabbit threw only normal kits, then you'd know you had one who had simply never inherited the disorder.
Breed non carries to non carriers and you eventually have clean stock.
After a decent sized disorder-free breeding pool was established, one would cull every single rabbit known to throw kits that had inherited it..

It would mean having euthanize a whole lot of sweet little baby bunnies long before they were ever big enough to eat though.

I won't even consider attempting it that with Mucky's line. It's not worth it.
Producing babies just to see at least half of them get sick and then have to kill them is just not the same thing as raising rabbits for meat.

I think, it would take a really valuable bloodline to be worth all that.

 

[Susie570]

I agree, you get a ton of respect for what you've done with this information and your dedication to breeding and testing.

It would be greatly appreciated if you could share the information over on LopRabbitsUSA. There is a section for v-lops and medical issues specific to the breed.

The site is still very small now, but you never know who might become a member there and find your information helpful.

 

[Zass]

I went back and corrected some typos. Seems my auto correct was turning gland into glad. :evil:

I agree, you get a ton of respect for what you've done with this information and your dedication to breeding and testing.

It would be greatly appreciated if you could share the information over on LopRabbitsUSA. There is a section for v-lops and medical issues specific to the breed.

The site is still very small now, but you never know who might become a member there and find your information helpful.

Thanks Susie!! Feel free to link this over there.

I don't really have the time to get involved with another forum ATM, since I'll be starting my new job soon. I won't be on Rt as much either.

We just needed some supplemental income to smooth over a few recent financial stresses, and maybe allow my husband a little flexibility while he contemplates his next career move.
We'd both like it if he could find a higher paying position.

I'll be operating injection mold type machinery at a pet treat factory, BTW.


It'll help pay for the kid's karate lessons, and maybe we'll finally have the extra cash to take them to the aquarium at Niagara falls soon.

 

[Susie570]

I'll post a link and good luck on the new job!

I'm considering getting my son karate lessons, or dance lessons. They cost about the same. Don't mean to derail your thread though, just wanted to say that I relate.

 

[alforddm]

I'll be operating injection mold type machinery at a pet treat factory, BTW.

Drink plenty of water that is HOT HOT work. I worked for a plastics company for a while. Congratz on the new job.

 

[FourRingCircus]

I'll be operating injection mold type machinery at a pet treat factory, BTW.

Drink plenty of water that is HOT HOT work. I worked for a plastics company for a while. Congratz on the new job.

DH is a Quality Manager at a plastic injection molding place - some days he has to spend a LOT of time in the warehouses and that is brutal, on the floor is warm, but semi-climate controlled.

 

[Zass]

I'll be operating injection mold type machinery at a pet treat factory, BTW.

Drink plenty of water that is HOT HOT work. I worked for a plastics company for a while. Congratz on the new job.

DH is a Quality Manager at a plastic injection molding place - some days he has to spend a LOT of time in the warehouses and that is brutal, on the floor is warm, but semi-climate controlled.

Thanks alforddm!

The rooms with all the injection machines and packing areas are climate controlled there. So it will be warm, but not unbearable, especially since PA is pretty cool most of the year. The factories can actually be brutally cold in winter too.


I'm pretty sure I was hired to run the machines and not for packing. (not that either is prestigious or intellectually stimulating, but hey, my only real post-high-school education was in animal care and petty management.

Due to the low population area, that only qualifies me for jobs that pay less than factory work...
I suppose, I'm probably qualified to run a pet shop, but...I suspect there isn't already one within a 40 minute drive for a reason.
Small, non franchise businesses rarely last a single winter. Customers tend to disappear when snow starts to fly, but the maintenance and operating fees persist.

Maybe, after we get the kids through collage I can look into something like that. :lol:

For now, I just needed a job that will allow me to work around my husband's schedule and still allow for homeschooling the kids during the day. Tricky tricky.

 

[Pepperoni]

Thanks for sharing all of this, Zass! I wish you didn't have to go through all of that, but as others said, I'm glad that it could happen to someone as thoughtful and honest as yourself. I too am afraid that this might be occurring in other lines and we just aren't hearing about it. I think that sometimes people might not report on health or other issues for fear of insulting another breeder or stirring up drama. I haven't been involved with vlops long, but from what I've read on older forums/facebook and heard from other people it does seem that this breed has more than your average feuding and fussing. And a lot of breeder turn-over. Whether that is the cause or a symptom of it taking so long for vlops to pass presentation and be a "real" breed, I don't know.

What I do know is that this breed is the sweetest and most people-oriented breed I've ever met, and I love them. I very much hope that if other people experience this phenomenon with their rabbits that they let you or the entire vlop community know. It's what's best for the breed as a whole.

 

[Susie570]

I had considered getting into Plush Lops, I think they're similar and we have breeder not too far away.
They're just gorgeous rabbits, but reading about some of the regular health issues from astrex genetics scared me off.

 

[BirchLane]

I'm really sorry to hear about this, Zass!

Swollen lymph nodes aren't an issue I have ever experienced as an EL breeder, but it could be that I chose my foundation stock from well established lines. (Since VL is still pretty new to the ARBA scene, I know that's considerably harder to do.) I have only ever had to cull one young EL kit because, as he grew, he developed splayed legs in the front. Whether that was genetic or caused by some sort of injury when he was still with his breeder, I don't know. I do know that he had a great deal of fluid in his chest cavity, though how that relates to having splayed legs is also not within the realm of my expertise.

If I hear of any issues popping up on the EL side of things, I'll make note for you. If you decide to give VLs another try, at least you'll know what could possibly be an issue on the EL side. My hope, of course, is that breeders would be just as responsible as you are and use only those healthy, genetically sound animals so that nobody has to worry about any nasty little surprises.

 

[Zass]

I allowed those the 1/2 velveteen kits to grow out to butcher weight, to see if there were going to be any differences.

Not all had swollen nodes, but many did, and at 11 weeks, they still had them.
They seemed like normal rabbits until we pulled them out and separated them by gender around 9-10 weeks.
After that their behavior changed drastically.
When they would see us they would start tearing around their pens in a blind panic every single time we approached, thumping constantly.
And when we picked them up after that, several would start screaming.

I was shocked since it's far from ordinary rabbit behavior.

All I can think is that maybe these rabbits had experienced a lot of pain from handling? I mean, if their muscles and nodes were sore, that might help explain why they started the behavior only after they were held, inspected, sexed, and carried to a new pen?

Well, we didn't wait for them to reach 12 weeks, instead we put them in the freezer a week early because I was afraid they were in pain.

 

[BirchLane]

Oh my goodness! That's awful.

I've been playing with the idea of perhaps adding a few VL to the rabbitry, but I'm finding a lot of issues like this popping up. I'm not exactly sure what's going on, since the mini rex and EL themselves seem to be pretty hardy breeds with well established lines. I think I'll just stick with my EL and my meat mutts for now, since I'm feeling very circumspect about the vitality of the VL.