ALBC

[5dognightfarm]

Does anyone know how to get a breed approved to be on the American Livestock Breeds Conservancy list? I see a future for Palominos through this organization.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

I think the ALBC pulls its numbers from ARBA already.. in fact I think the Palominos were on it but have since dropped off the list.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

my understanding-- ALBC dropped some rabbit breeds because rather than breed purebred to purebred- people were breeding say, Palomino to NZW to increase the numbers-- breeding back and forth-- to re-establish color, form, etc-- so that no rabbit in their herd was truly-- three generations of pure Palomino. So, nbasically, there were not following the conservation breeding practices... of developing lines using females, crossing those ines, breeding daughters to grandfathers, etc...
using one breed to 'preserve' another introduces a whole set of genetics that can remain hidden, then suddenly crop up-- much tpo the dismay of an unsuspecting purist!!!

 

[Honorine]

Well I'm a strong believer that outcrossing is the only way to save some of the rare breeds, purists be damned if you can't even find breeding stock. What matters is how you do your crosses, and what breed you choose to improve them with. You also always cross back to purebreds, so your first gen is 50%, second is 75%, third is 87%, and fourth pretty much purebred. There's a big 'thing' in the Silver breed, the purists freak over crossing colors. Its has led to three colors that are almost different breeds, so varied in appearance they can be. Also fawns have become very rare, and extremely difficult to find, when someone did a rare breed census not too long ago only 33 were reported to exist, including mine. Now many people are crossing browns with fawns, trying to increase their numbers, so that we don't lose them. I also am doing this to improve size, and I don't care what anyone esle thinks. Its cross colors or lose them. I must admit, REW in a breed where it does not belong is one of my pet peeves, and since most everyone uses NZW for improvement it does pop up quite a bit. Cheeses me off, but its a far lesser sin I think than refusing to cull heavily and breeding poor quality animals just because their 'insert rare breed'. We all need to take a long hard look at the American people, who have done an incredible job both in promoting their breed, and increasing the gene pool, its just amazing what they have accomplished in a few short years. But other breeds may need to be outcrossed to save them, and I know their were a few doing outcrosses with the Americans as well. Funny, I happen to have to have acquired three Pal/NZ crosses this past weekend, an while they do have a small amount of smut they do easily pass for Palominos. Rufus can be added to and subtracted from, just takes a few generations. I know there's lots of rabbits on the show tables that aren't perfect purebreds, since rabbits are shown on phenotype not genotype, they are so plastic genetically.

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

when I asked an American breeder judge aboutgthe AmChins-- he told me to use Standard Chins and breed up-- to avoid the Giant Chin-- Iam having a difficult time getting new AmChins-- And rally, if I had to, I probably would use an Am Chin Buck over some Standards--But-- i don;t want to mess up with the required ring pattern--

I have a half Am Chin half mutt ( Mom was a cal marked, NZ Cal cross-- no idea of proportions)--Nice grey agoiti-- good structure- wonderful mother-- can;t even get an Am Chin buck lined up for her!!! If she had that dang pearl colored part in her ring pattern, she would be a good doe for me to use--I could have 75% with the first litter!

Now, can we re-devlope a breed, the way the English Bulldog was? probably not-- I would SO love to cover Marsha with a good Am Chin Buck!!

 

[Honorine]

Terry why do you have to be on the opposite side of PA from me? There is an Am Chin breeder right here in Stroudsburg, and I have Standard Chinchillas. In fact I'm surrounded by rare breed people, there's a nice smattering of them in eastern PA. I really like my Standard Chins, nice rabbits, decent growth rates, in a smaller package which is what I like. I did just sell a buck to someone in Ohio who is starting up with the Standards, I know she doesn't have any litters yet but she might in the future. Its a shame you can't even find a decent buck.

 

[Bumper]

Hey Honorine, that's cool that you have silvers. I know three people - including myself- who have crossed Silvers to another breed. In my experience, the type, growth rate, survival rate, fur quality, and general vitality shot WAY up in the hybrids compared to the pure silvers. I had an F2 doe that could beat all my pure bucks on the show table, when she was a junior! I'm very concerned about losing this breed if more people don't get behind it.

"Purebred" in rabbits just doesn't mean the same thing as it means in other species. So much crossing is done, and a rabbit doesn't have to be purebred to be shown. Rabbit shows are based on phenotype, not genotype.

 

[5dognightfarm]

when I asked an American breeder judge aboutgthe AmChins-- he told me to use Standard Chins and breed up-- to avoid the Giant Chin-- Iam having a difficult time getting new AmChins-- And rally, if I had to, I probably would use an Am Chin Buck over some Standards--But-- i don;t want to mess up with the required ring pattern--

I have a half Am Chin half mutt ( Mom was a cal marked, NZ Cal cross-- no idea of proportions)--Nice grey agoiti-- good structure- wonderful mother-- can;t even get an Am Chin buck lined up for her!!! If she had that dang pearl colored part in her ring pattern, she would be a good doe for me to use--I could have 75% with the first litter!

Now, can we re-devlope a breed, the way the English Bulldog was? probably not-- I would SO love to cover Marsha with a good Am Chin Buck!!

I have a handsome AmChin buck that's been sweeping the tables lately that would gladly service Marsha for you!<br /><br />__________ Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:10 am __________<br /><br />I don't entirely mind crossbreeding if the intent is to improve the breed. See, my Palomino line is highly inbred, all descended from one buck and two sister does (turns out the buck was half Netherland Dwarf, isn't that nice?) but we culled most of that line because there were such issues as getting peanuts in the third or fourth generations and the mature weight is shrinking dramatically. I admit, I am introducing New Zealand reds and golds, but not bringing them out in public to sell or show, at least not until they're at least 3 generations golden. Actually, I'm not selling any Pals right now for multiple reasons.

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

when I asked an American breeder judge aboutgthe AmChins-- he told me to use Standard Chins and breed up-- to avoid the Giant Chin-- Iam having a difficult time getting new AmChins-- And rally, if I had to, I probably would use an Am Chin Buck over some Standards--But-- i don;t want to mess up with the required ring pattern--

I have a half Am Chin half mutt ( Mom was a cal marked, NZ Cal cross-- no idea of proportions)--Nice grey agoiti-- good structure- wonderful mother-- can;t even get an Am Chin buck lined up for her!!! If she had that dang pearl colored part in her ring pattern, she would be a good doe for me to use--I could have 75% with the first litter!

Now, can we re-devlope a breed, the way the English Bulldog was? probably not-- I would SO love to cover Marsha with a good Am Chin Buck!!

Terry, using different breeds of Chinchillas shouldn't mess up the ring colour, chin is chin no matter the breed. You would only have the size/type issues to deal with. If bad ring colour is present it's because it's a familial trait that was inherited in that line. And really most of these rare breeds are crossbreeds to begin with, as they were developed in North America out of old European breeds sometime during the 20th century. I would say if its really hard to get what you need, to go ahead and use that doe and just keep those with the correct ring colour. Hopefully you will find a buck for her soon!

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

I don't want to mess up ring color by crossing into a breed without rings -- I sometimes miss few pieces of info when I post-- I am usually thinking way ahead of what my fingers are processing!!!
Marsha has a wonderful coat-- but needs that extra band of pearl color in the shaft

Cait- I would love to use your buck-- then breed back any daughters-- would the pearl band show up in a 3/4 Chin?

 

[Devon's Mom Lauren]

Agouti by its very definition means "rings". I didn't say anything about crossing into selfs or non agouti breeds, I said different types of Chin breeds. However, out of curiosity are you saying AM Chins have a fourth ring or does Marsha only have two rings?

sorry! I guess this is a complete thread hijack now...

 

[Frosted Rabbits]

Marsha is missing the pearl band in the shaft color pattern. Her Sire- PJN15 had perfect AmChin rings. He was bred to a CAl marked 'nz x cal'mutt doe-- with unknown percentages of the two behind her. I saw the 'chd' present in the genomes of cal and Amchin, so I tried it-- and got a normal 'grey' agouti-Breeding with all white rabbits did not produce any agouti kits...- PJ died while I was in the Nursing home-- a blow to my heart--as I had hoped to breed Marsha back to him. Of course, the other two agouti kits in the litter were boys...
For purposes of 'purity' I would follow the breeder judge's advice (Tom Berger- his program provided most of the genetics of my original herd)and try to breed up with Standards, if needed--to maintain body type-- rather than use Giant Chin and have to correct structure issues.

 

[HendricksHearth]

I did some research and felt like Harlequins met the ALBC criteria for admission onto their list. I've been communicating with them about it and relaying information from all different sources, including internationally. There is no guarantee they will ever be approved, but I am trying.

All I can say to the OP is to be a member of ALBC, ARBA, and your breed club if you aren't already. Then you will need to gather up the history of your breed with book references (the e-books on this site can help you as well), the ARBA registration (I contacted them for these figures) and convention attendance by year. Then work with the breed club to figure out how many members and approximate population of the breed in the US and other countries, too.

I have to say some of this is very frustrating, not to mention time-consuming. Some countries don't even ever respond and others don't send what I asked for. Some people refuse to communicate via any other way but snail mail. There are a lot of gray areas and it is difficult to estimate numbers because they are always changing as people get into a rare breed as others are selling out.

Ultimately, I am hoping it ends up helping Harlequins. Even if it doesn't hopefully it is bringing the breed to some people's attention that may not have considered their rich history, declining population, etc.

Best of luck,

Lauren

 

[5dognightfarm]

I don't want to mess up ring color by crossing into a breed without rings -- I sometimes miss few pieces of info when I post-- I am usually thinking way ahead of what my fingers are processing!!!
Marsha has a wonderful coat-- but needs that extra band of pearl color in the shaft

Cait- I would love to use your buck-- then breed back any daughters-- would the pearl band show up in a 3/4 Chin?

As for that, I wouldn't know. I got a couple of Standard Chins to help me learn about the color, since AmChins are so rare in our state. I have been told by judges that Sammy, my buck, has great ring color, but I have nothing to compare that to.

If you plan on coming up to Michigan anytime soon, Sammy will be here.