Aftermath....

[grumpy]

Instead of watching dozens of my stock die, I'm left with the effects of
what may be even more insidious. Now silent, the nightmares of the past
three weeks have taken on an even more sickening role: Long Term Effects.

I'm still in the dark as to what exactly was the cause of my problem. I'm
still waiting on the Lab Reports from the State. Hopefully, their findings
may shed some light on what happened. This may take an extended length
of time before all becomes well within the rabbitry. All I can do is "Wait".
It sucks....!!!! I hate it....!!!

Yesterday was a lousy day to begin with. I had to say good-bye to a pair
of very old does. I've got their young throughout the rabbitry, but it still
pained me to send them on their way. Unfortunately, sentimentality has
no place in a commercial operation. What needs to be done, must be done.
A decision is made, you institute your decision, you never look back. It still
sucks...!!

Low rates of gain in the youngsters still in the nest. Does kindling prematurely.
Not good....but something I may have to deal with for quite some time.
Thankfully, some little voice whispered in my ear several months ago
to start saving young does and allowing them to become part of the
production herd. Little did I know "how" I was that intuitive to what
was about to occur. I've not needed to fill this many brood pens in quite
a long while. I've got a lot of "tattoo-work" ahead of me. LOL.

Grumpy

 

[michaels4gardens]

mold toxin [especially ergot type on the grain] ingested durring pregnancy will cause premature birth, -- the problem may pass after the round of breeders who were pregnant when you had "bad feed" have kindled and are re-bred-- just a thought...

 

[grumpy]

mold toxin [especially ergot type on the grain] ingested durring pregnancy will cause premature birth, -- the problem may pass after the round of breeders who were pregnant when you had "bad feed" have kindled and are re-bred-- just a thought...

Thanks Michael,

At least that's "something" to look forward to. I can take the hit of
losing one round of kits. Not easily, mind you, but do-able. My biggest
fear is permanent damage to the breeding stock.

If they can climb up out of this hole, I'll gladly help them along. I was
really shocked yesterday afternoon. RK-021 is a 3-year old daughter out
of one of those two does I sent out yesterday. She's had either 10 or 11
litters for me and only missed once during the hot part of the season. She
kindled 10 youngsters on the 17th of March and saved all of them. She's
been a "rock".

I was tending the herd and came upon her pen. She was setting upright
with her ears perked towards my attention. Suddenly, her head tilted to
the left and she collapsed. Stroke? Heart-Attack? I don't have a clue what
happened. I worked with her a few moments and got her to stand upright
unassisted. But, I fear she'll not recover. She'd not been showing any forms
of stress during this entire debacle. Her litter of 10 is doing just fine and
starting to eat on their own. If she expires, I'll at least have the litter so
I can save one or two of her daughters.

"""If it weren't for bad luck.....""" so the song goes.

Grumpy.

 

[dayna]

Dang Grumpy. Long term lasting effects is what I was afraid of too.

 

[Comet007]

Wow, I'm sorry that there are lingering effects from the bad feed. I really hope that the problem is resolved with the next round of litters and that you don't have anymore mature rabbits die! Prayers going out for you and your rabbitry, and I don't say that unless I mean it - you're in my book until this clears up!

 

[squidpop]

I read your thread on Bad feed and also think it sounds like it was the feed, especially since you changed the feed and the deaths stopped. But I just thought I would throw this out there.... I wonder if a parasite infection, not normally associated with rabbits, like giardia or cryptosporidium could have infected the rabbits, or the feed? I found an article about rabbits in china who were tested and had these bugs —the more I read he more paranoid I get about all those pathogens, out there lurking and waiting to infect my rabbits.

 

[michaels4gardens]

The worst fear I have,- is feed with bird , or rodent poop in it, -- the disease possibilities are endless, and future is uncertain--
Mold ,-will run its course and we can come out the other side of it--

 

[Madpiratebippy]

mold toxin [especially ergot type on the grain] ingested durring pregnancy will cause premature birth, -- the problem may pass after the round of breeders who were pregnant when you had "bad feed" have kindled and are re-bred-- just a thought...

Thanks Michael,

At least that's "something" to look forward to. I can take the hit of
losing one round of kits. Not easily, mind you, but do-able. My biggest
fear is permanent damage to the breeding stock.

If they can climb up out of this hole, I'll gladly help them along.

Grumpy.

If the problem was the feed (and from everything you've said, it sure sounds like it) the damage shouldn't be teterogenic or mutagenic. Basically, it's really, really hard for feed issues to cause genetic damage. The animals that ate the bad feed might not perform as well as they did before they interacted with whatever toxin, but their young should be fine, genetically. Rabbits are pretty good at bouncing back from things like this, it's part of what makes them useful as lab animals. I'm thinking of how often rabbits are used for reproductive toxicity studies.

My best guess for what contaminated your feed, based on what you said, is that either some of the feed got sprayed with some of the newer herbicides that haven't been fully studied in all forms of livestock (ahem, they normally don't do nearly enough research on mammalian impacts of herbicides in my NOT so humble opinion, says the child raised with a disabled father from Agent Orange exposure- it took them 30 YEARS to admit that's what was going on, and about 10 times the hospital's told us to make final arrangements, so it's a subject that I have quite the soap box about), or your feed might have had some sort of mold contamination.

Either way, if it helps, the kits will probably reproduce fine, even if the ones who were in the does during this crazy badness may not be quite as perfect at gaining weight on schedule as they might have otherwise been. You weren't even injecting the does with lead, or herbicides, or other

The odds are really, really low from everything I know about reproductive toxicology (not as much as I should) that you're going to have serious, long-term impacts from this. Some clean food and time should clear it up.

If the issue was mold, mycotoxins reduce vitamins A, D3, E, K and thiamine available in the feed and in the rabbit's bodies, and sometimes what actually kills the rabbit is a deficiency in one of these vitamins. Maybe giving treats that are high in these vitamins for the next few days could help them get back in their groove?

As a quick side note, I do know some people who use barely fodder (sprout barley seeds for 7-8 days) as a rabbit feed, and the buns seem to realy enjoy it. I know that wheat fodder and barely fodder are sometimes fed to get animals past reproductive toxicity issues, or in the case of a disaster, like Fukashima radiation. Grass fodder's also been used to bump reproduction rates for animals like older prize bulls (it can dramatically increase sperm production) and can bump the size and health of rabbit litters.

Perhaps feeding a bit of wheatgrass or barely fodder would help get them back on track faster?

I am so sorry you're dealing with this. I hope this is helpful, not annoying.

 

[skysthelimit]

If the issue was mold, mycotoxins reduce vitamins A, D3, E, K and thiamine available in the feed and in the rabbit's bodies, and sometimes what actually kills the rabbit is a deficiency in one of these vitamins. Maybe giving treats that are high in these vitamins for the next few days could help them get back in their groove?

As a quick side note, I do know some people who use barely fodder (sprout barley seeds for 7-8 days) as a rabbit feed, and the buns seem to realy enjoy it. I know that wheat fodder and barely fodder are sometimes fed to get animals past reproductive toxicity issues, or in the case of a disaster, like Fukashima radiation. Grass fodder's also been used to bump reproduction rates for animals like older prize bulls (it can dramatically increase sperm production) and can bump the size and health of rabbit litters.

Interesting indeed. I think I will will use this info to give my buns a boost. Since I had the cocci incident last fall, the adult does that survived haven't had successful litters yet. I treated with Corrid, then neomycin, and I heard that the Corrid, I think inhibited absorption or removed thiamine?

 

[Madpiratebippy]

If the issue was mold, mycotoxins reduce vitamins A, D3, E, K and thiamine available in the feed and in the rabbit's bodies, and sometimes what actually kills the rabbit is a deficiency in one of these vitamins. Maybe giving treats that are high in these vitamins for the next few days could help them get back in their groove?

Interesting indeed. I think I will will use this info to give my buns a boost. Since I had the cocci incident last fall, the adult does that survived haven't had successful litters yet. I treated with Corrid, then neomycin, and I heard that the Corrid, I think inhibited absorption or removed thiamine?

It's very possible, a lot of drugs lock up or interfere with nutrient absorption. Another thing I've heard about cocci is that the damage that is caused can reduce the body's ability to absorb nutrients- since the cell walls of the digestive track are attacked, and various bits of the digestive track absorb different nutrients, the part that absorbs X vitamin or mineral could be damaged enough that there just isn't enough area for absorption anymore.

Giving some supplemental vitamins is usually pretty cheap, and wheatgrass is fantastic for improving fertility in livestock (and is also cheap), so it's always worth a shot.

if I get some time (this weekend is a wedding in another city, I don't have enough time to dig- but Monday I should get my life back) I'll see if the drugs you used have any known nutrient reactions for you.

/hijack

 

[grumpy]

Thanks everyone...

I've spent billions of brain-cells attempting to decipher all possibilities. LOL.

All I've ended up with...............is a headache. I heard from the "State"
yesterday afternoon. NOTHING!!! All ingredients were within limits and
no salmonella was discovered. That's all they tested for.

So basically, WE are all on our OWN. Don't expect a heck of
a lot from your taxpayer subsidized governmental officials. Of course, I
never have, but I was "hoping" this situation might have been different.
NOT!!

"Something" slammed into the herd very quickly. They don't drop like flies
without "help". At least, I've never had it occur in over 4 decades of foolin'
with these fuzzy creatures. Now, any feed is suspect. That's a sad state
of affairs to live with, but I've been left with no choice.

Alternate feeds:: Better feeds:: Safer feeds:: I can think of only one
avenue that would allow me peace of mind and confidence in the food
source. Whether or not it's viable remains to be seen, but I'm continuing
to investigate the "Fodder-Feed" system and it's ability to provide
wholesome natural feed for the rabbitry. It looks to be quite labor
intensive on a rudimentary scale. However, I've seen systems that look
very efficient and ones that could be incorporated and modified
into a feeding method for a commercial rabbitry.

It's a big step and one that, when I'm ready, will be implemented with every
time and labor saving device available. I've got the space, the determination,
and the ability to construct it. I just have to gather a bit more knowledge.

We'll see....is a semi-promise to myself to "TRY".

Grumpy.

 

[Sagebrush]

That really sucks Grumpy. I was also "hoping" that they could tell you what if anything was in the feed that killed so many of your herd. Keeping you in my thoughts.

 

[Miss M]

:shock:

Salmonella? That's it? That's all they tested for?

:shock:

Grrrrrr....

:storm-cloud:

I am so sorry, but I hope you can get everything straightened out!

 

[margali]

That is horrible. Main toxin in corn and feed is mold. This can be found with basic black light and measured with test kit. I will see if I can get permission to post our test procedures...

 

[Featherhoof]

I'm indignant. Really? Out of the gazillions of things to test for that was the only one tested. So sorry Grumpy. My family and I have been following your saga. We all hope things only get better from this point.

 

[margali]

Info from University of Missouri about black light and testing: See this link: http://aes.missouri.edu/delta/croppest/aflacorn.stm last revised 2009.

Testing Laboratories: Samples for aflatoxin testing can be submitted to the Veterinary Medical Diagnostic Laboratory, College of Veterinary Medicine, P.O. Box 6023, Columbia, MO 65205. The sample should be a half pound sample that is representative of the entire load or volume of grain. There is a $15.00 fee for aflatoxin analysis.

The Missouri Department of Agriculture is also offering aflatoxin testing for $20.00 per test. Those wanting grain tested should provide the department with approximately two pounds of grain. The grain sample should be representative of all the grain stored, so grain should be pulled from more than one area to make the sample. Each sample must include some type of identification along with the name, address and telephone number of the person to receive the test results.

The department is providing aflatoxin testing from its New Madrid office. Samples can be sent directly to the Grain Inspection Services Laboratory, 718 U.S. Highway 61, New Madrid, MO 63869, (573-748-5526).

Maybe they can do testing if you still have samples....

 

[JessiL]

Grumpy, like everyone else, I am so sorry to hear of your troubles. I hope you get some sort of resolution, and that your herd rebuilds stronger than before.

I have noticed that you mention perhaps turning to fodder as a solution to your feed-sourcing issues. I would encourage you to try a trial or two on some of your own rabbits before committing. See my fresh post here to see my experiment with fodder feeding of meat rabbits.

results-of-fodder-feeding-trial-with-meat-rabbit-fryers-t20888.html

I'm not going to pretend like my rabbits or situation can represent everyone else's, but hopefully it will be at least a little informative. Food for thought, at least.

- Jessi

 

[grumpy]

That is horrible. Main toxin in corn and feed is mold. This can be found with basic black light and measured with test kit. I will see if I can get permission to post our test procedures...

I'm indignant. Really? Out of the gazillions of things to test for that was the only one tested. So sorry Grumpy. My family and I have been following your saga. We all hope things only get better from this point.

:shock:

Salmonella? That's it? That's all they tested for?

:shock:

Grrrrrr....

:storm-cloud:

I am so sorry, but I hope you can get everything straightened out!

JessyL: Thanks for the heads-up, I've read your post and found it quite
interesting.

Well, it looks like I'm not the only one that was "upset"...LOL.

I was flabbergasted, to say the least, when I found out about their
limited testing procedures. Of course, I learned of this practice 15 days
past the date of the complaint.

"It is what it is"..... Not much can be done about it now. It's more than
a little frustrating when I was told all of this "after the fact."

We live and we learn:: Funny thing is, on my other post about building
my son Brandon a book case:
from-trash-to-treasure-pic-heavy-t20834.html

I've gotten several "orders" from other folks wanting one for a family member.
For nearly 30 years, I made a darned good living, building furniture,
kitchen cabinets, and "one-of-a-kind" heirloom quality pieces of furniture.
I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed doing this.

When we adopted the boys and moved to the country, I put all of that aside
so I could devote myself fulltime to the boys and their needs. Well, now
they are all grown, young men and don't need my undivided attention
any longer. It would only take a relatively small amount of money to
update and upgrade all of my woodworking equipment, so I could do this
once again.

I've got several thousand dollar's worth of trapping equipment that I could
sell quite easily and use that money to restore or rehab my cabinet shop and
the tools. LOL:: I've got a $2000.00 planer that hasn't been turned on in
over 15 years. A $900.00 scroll saw that I've never used is still standing in
the corner of my shop. An $800.00 molder that's tucked under my storage
racks. Several hundred board feet of walnut and cherry wood still on the racks.

grumpy