a selection of steels, AND squirrel or shagouti?

[JessiL]

Ok, most of these photos are for Zass, because I know how much she loves steels, but I would like opinions on the first topic of squirrel (blue chinchilla) versus "shagouti" (and a smoke pearl shagouti at that!).

So, I briefly had an extra American blue buck hanging around that I took on as a favor to a friend (moving and temporarily getting out of rabbits). He came from famous lines, but was small and not too impressive. I culled him after finding he had white toenails (yes, I didn't look as closely as I should have). Anyway, before he left us, I had used him to breed to one of my does. She is a gold-tipped blue steel. Imagine my surprise when I got, in addition to the expected blues and gold-tipped blue steel, I got something that seems to be either a squirrel (blue chinchilla) or maybe an agoutified siamese smoke pearl. Too bad it's a he, if it was a doe, it would be sticking around because it's so pretty.

I thought he was a squirrel when young (Aa B_ cchdc dd E_), but with a little bit of age, he now is getting a little bit of shading/smut around, so perhaps he is a dilute shagouti instead (Aa B_ cchlc dd E_). I have had confirmation with the doe's second litter that she is indeed a carrier of the c gene (she seems to be Aa B_ Cc dd Es_). The father of this bunny just looked like your usual American blue, nice and deep blue color. So, any opinions on what I have?





And additionally, I am becoming increasingly confused about the variety in steel coloration that I am seeing within the same litter. Some of them have a lot of the base dark color (either black or blue), with scattered ticking, and others are darn close to chestnut or opal. I wonder if it's a function of EsEs versus EsE? As far as I know, there isn't a lot of e gene in Americans; then again, some of these rabbits maybe would make sense as a steeled tort? For illustration, here is a series of sisters from the same litter. One of the blue steels looks really smutty/rufousy, whereas the other is much more a dilute version of the black steel shown separately. But I do get near-chestnut black steels too. Unfortunately, I hadn't recorded the different variations before, so I can't yet figure out from observed frequency what the genes might be...







Any thoughts? Steels are tough!

 

[Dood]

Steel is tricky.

I've has "EsE" rabbits range from near black to slightly darker chestnut but nearly all of my "EsEs" and "Esej" (steel harlequin) are blacks and from his site I know that "Ese" can have a wide range as well- I believe there are other modifiers (kinda like Rufus factors) that effect how dark or light an "EsE" or "Ese" rabbit will be.

That rabbit is very odd looking - I've never seen so much yellow in a chinchilla or shaded agouti so I am leaning towards a very light opal, however, I've only produced once shaded agouti (that I know of :mrgreen: ) and she looks EXACTLY like a regular chinchilla but it might just be my particular bloodline as my chinchillas have very clear coats and hardly any smut, even as kits

 

[JessiL]

The rust in the squirrel buck is all in the dark ticking, nothing is contaminating the white ring.his belly and triangle are pure white, belly with a nice deep blue undercolor. Sorry I don't have pictures of that, was taking photos alone. So anyway, the lack of fawn in any of his pale hair parts makes me want to exclude opal.
I keep considering picking up a nice chestnut or opal bunny from another breed that I could be confident was only AA B_ CC d whatever EE for test breeding purposes. Too much steelhiding in the gene pool of Americans, as well as who knows what with wide band and extension, to be able to figure it out using only them.

 

[Zass]

Ok, most of these photos are for Zass, because I know how much she loves steels

:rotfl:

I suppose you could say I like steel, but only where I can see it. :lol:


EsE has a TON of variation. I don't seem to need e, ej, or Es Es to create a self or near self looking steel. It must be modifiers that control how much ticking shows.

Your buck is lovely...whatever he is! I've never seen a shaded agouti up close, but the white feet tops on that rabbit are telling me he has some kind of chinchilla. I can't tell from the picture, but a dilute won't have any black on it.
It might be the lighting making him look like he has a yellow cast. :shrug: It's a shame you won't be able to keep him for test breeding. I'd certainly like to!

Opals have a cream color lining most of their white, especially on the belly, and the tan ticking is pretty easy to see on the blue steels.

A friend had some pretty crazy genes turn up in her pedigreed blue Americans. Steel, non-extension, and chinchilla.

She has a really pretty squirrel mutt doe out of an american right now. I wonder if she'd let me post a pic.

Here are two opals to show a bit of the color variation they can have. One was always more blue, and one was always more tawny. (The tawny one is Pancake) Even on the bluer one, you can see the tops of his feet are cream colored.

It only makes since that the same coats with steel would have variations too.

And I happen to have a pic of an Ese kit. It wouldn't really be called a tort steel, so much as a fawn steel since it's agouti based?
The kit on the left in the bottom pic is an Ese for sure, since his mother was a tort. The kit on the right is an EsE (out of a super steel and an opal)

<br /><br /> __________ Thu Jul 31, 2014 4:29 pm __________ <br /><br /> Found more of that Es e kit. Always thought it looked...odd.

 

[JessiL]

Aww, Pancake was such a cutie!

Although there is wide variability in my steels, I am going with a working hypothesis that there are two main forms present, almost chestnut and the much blacker kind I have pictured here. This particular litter only had the super dark in black base, but I've got near chestnut before. That's what mom is. Dad has always been a nice deep visual blue. Together, they have only produced steels and visual selfs, which makes me suspect that mom is EsEs. This is out of almost 40 kits now, you'd think we'd have got an opal or chestnut by now if it were possible. Her daughter is the one who produced the squirrel kit, and thus cannot be EsEs herself.
Any ideas of what steel genes would do to undercolor in self rabbits? I encountered some very firm opinions on using steels in American breeding programs in a Facebook group as some folks thought the presence of a steel gene would lead to light undercoats. Which doesn't seem to make sense as the visual steels have fine dark undercoats, as do most of my selfs.

We do wish we could find a home for the squirrel or agouti boy, he is handsome. But we have no us for that color

 

[Zass]

Aww, Pancake was such a cutie!

Although there is wide variability in my steels, I am going with a working hypothesis that there are two main forms present, almost chestnut and the much blacker kind I have pictured here. This particular litter only had the super dark in black base, but I've got near chestnut before. That's what mom is. Dad has always been a nice deep visual blue. Together, they have only produced steels and visual selfs, which makes me suspect that mom is EsEs. This is out of almost 40 kits now, you'd think we'd have got an opal or chestnut by now if it were possible. Her daughter is the one who produced the squirrel kit, and thus cannot be EsEs herself.
Any ideas of what steel genes would do to undercolor in self rabbits? I encountered some very firm opinions on using steels in American breeding programs in a Facebook group as some folks thought the presence of a steel gene would lead to light undercoats. Which doesn't seem to make sense as the visual steels have fine dark undercoats, as do most of my selfs.

We do wish we could find a home for the squirrel or agouti boy, he is handsome. But we have no us for that color

Someone on here got a visual steel out of two pedigreed black SF. :shock: That's the real problem. Once self and steel are blended, your eventually going to see masked chestnuts (or opals) that just look like selfs. I feel that it's a total myth that it takes two copies of steel or steel paired with something else to produce them.

There must be something like extension dark, or modifiers that can make it look black without the second copy of the gene.

Well, once those genes are involved with each other, you start to see more variation among the selfs, since not all will really be selfs to begin with!

I personally feel it lowers quality, not in the undercoat, but in overall consistency, and once those steel genes are there, you can't get rid of them in breeds that only come in self colors.

As to undercoats, I've had everything from nice dark undercoats to undercoats that were nearly white, and my lines were all genetic supersteels! :shrug: The ones with white undercoats eventually grew out of it and it came back nice and dark.

I agree that visual steels do tend to have very dark undercoats.

I don't believe you should sweat it too much though, since SF, Calis, and Americans are already contaminated with steel, and no one knows if there stock even has it unless they out cross, test breed, or have a random steel kit pop out of a self litter.

I mentioned that someone found steel in there americans here too, right?

Basically, 1/2 the people telling you not to introduce steel, or that your stock is impure, probably have impure stock too, and just never checked.


Oh, speaking of variants. I agree that those two are the main ones.

I include masked steels as a third variant. My SF never threw as many visual steels as they should have when crossed to agoutis.
I would expect to see 50% visual steels, but I would get maybe three visual steels in a litter of 12.
2 in a litter of 10.
1 in a litter of 8. The trend was pretty constant. I think some of the "selfs" were actually my missing steels.

It's made my foxy-agouti project VERY slow.

We do wish we could find a home for the squirrel or agouti boy, he is handsome. But we have no us for that color

*sigh* I don't suppose there is a bunny bus traveling between there and here...

 

[JessiL]

Hooray! A nice young couple from rural Nevada took the squirrel or whatever buck home to be a breeder of meat bunnies! He'll have a black New Zealand doe as his first girlfriend, there will be some interesting bunnies out of that cross for sure. Or maybe just all blacks and chestnuts. Still, it was nice to not to have to eat him, we liked him a lot.