3 strikes clarification

[Rainey]

When someone posts a question about a doe that isn't doing well with her first litter, the answer often includes the 3 strikes rule--that you don't expect all does to get it right the first time. Reading SEP Board's posts about the surprise litter and the unfed kits reminds me of last spring when we had a doe that didn't do well. First she kindled on the wire even though she had a nest box several days ahead. Then she didn't feed the kits. We tried her again and that time she used the nest box but only kept 4 of 11. That was the end of the road for her.
Our other does may have kindled once on the wire before they figured out the meaning of a nest box, but they all had enough milk to feed their kits. I think if I had another that didn't, I wouldn't try her again. It's so hard seeing those unfed or underfed kits slowly fade. But I was wondering if others have had does that were unable or unwilling to feed a first litter but did develop into good mothers with sufficient milk. And if one culled does that didn't feed a first litter instead of giving them a second chance would that "strike" be less likely to occur in the herd? How heritable is milk production? How consistent is it for an individual from litter to litter?
(The moderators may have to tell me "the question office is now closed until after supper" as I used to tell my home-schooled daughter when I tired of her endless inquiries.)

 

[Marinea]

I haven't had an issue with my does not nursing, but I definitely have seen consistent milk production by doe. I have one older doe that always has the best grow out weights, regardless of the buck she is bred to, and despite her having large litters.

I kept one of her daughters. She is also a good producer, and I am keeping her despite her nasty attitude change when she has kits.

 

[ladysown]

i believe that what you breed for is what you get, and a person often starts with looser criteria until they refine what they want.

Let me walk you through my process and to what I do now.

1. bred rabbits...just wanted baby bunnies. Got them, sold them.
2. Went through a HORRID health situation where I lost babies, juveniles and adults... just a really rough patch BUT it woke me rabbit illness and how NOT good it is.
3. new rabbits, cull for health. Research health, food, etc. Joined rabbittalk when it was brand new.
4. Develop a three strike rule with forgiveness. So I'd give young does an extra chance, forgive kits with messy eyes as long as it didn't affect sight, favourite does got a special pass etc.
5. sold some kits as pets and had them die... replaced them but it made me think hmm... shouldn't have happened WHY? Developed a stronger protocol to test for health issues (ergo moving rabbits from one cage to another, changing routines regularly, not feeding the same thing all the time etc).
6. Thus began my search for what I wanted to breed for... HEALTH being my top priority, followed by temperament.
7. Three strike rule applied to everyone with the odd forgiveness...favourite does etc would get passes but give me sick (gut issue) kits for two litters.. out the door, don't kindle for two breedings.. out the door. If every other young doe is doing their job and one doesn't.... I don't breed you.
8. overtime have learned a few things and each time I step up my strike rules.

Where am I now? Stepped it up to include nestbox eye, going off feed when moving a group of kits WITH their mother to a new cage (as I breed against stress issues as I think of it as a health issue), reluctance to breed, going off feed during seasonal changes ... recently sold my best buck as after a storm with lots of wind and noise he refused to eat for one day, and then ate 1/2 his normal ration for four days afterwards WITH encouragement (favourite foods etc) and since seasonal changes continue to be my nemesis I removed him from my herd. I generally follow a two strike rule... if everyone else is fine and YOU are not then you leave. I now mark kits on my website as for sale if they get nestbox eye as it's a good incentive to stay true to my goal.
Unthrifty kits two litters in a row using a different buck.... out the door (that's a milk production thing)


The results?
I used to lose kits from every litter to gut issues ... EVERY litter...now strictly seasonal and ONLY kits 9-12 weeks of age. Every year the losses are less.

Nestbox eye... used to affect 8 of 10 litters. Now... I only see it in my holland lops, and of six current litters about 30 kits...only four kits have been affected and none of badly enough to warrant treatment. I do not think of it as a cleanliness issue...I see it ONLY as a health issue since I used to see kits from very clean nests get it, and kits from does that were filthy and always needed to change out the box have kits there were healthy as anything.

Poor producing or lack of thrift in kits is a thing of the past.

I DO have one doe on my short list. She's a slow breeder but she produces great kits... but since I have to downsize she's on my short list though hasn't really hit the two strikes list as I've just avoided the issue by running her with a buck for three days this past litter. won't be doing that again though. I did this because I had a request for kits from that particular doe.

anyways, all that to say... be tough with your herd. SERIOUSLY tough and know that you will always get tougher.

Your herd will benefit for it. AS WILL YOU.

 

[akane]

How strict you are depends on your goals and the stock you can start with. With champagne and creme d'argent we were strict. If it didn't breed in 2 attempts it was gone and if it didn't regularly produce 5+ healthy kits it was gone. They had been bred for quality production for decades by the group of people in the area we got them from. When trying to breed Netherland dwarf temperament wasn't the only issue. I got some from a show breeder that not one went smoothly. If I'd culled them all at 3 strikes including breeding misses I would have had nothing left. I soon got more ND that weren't quite as show ideal but more enjoyable to work with and ended up culling down to 2 does out of a dozen with none of the does from the first group. I was in the process of breeding the numbers back up to a working population of healthy, fertile, and sane rabbits when we decided to give up on rabbits because we found they had to be kept indoors at our new house. Once you establish rabbits you like you can steadily get stricter on various aspects but when you have a new person trying to figure out what they are doing or when getting together a new group of rabbits the 3 strike rule seems to work pretty well as a general guide.

 

[Zass]

I agree with above statements. It seems to me that very new breeders are best off giving a doe all three chances to compensate for their own inexperience.
Just because, there are all kinds of signs a doe may give that an experienced breeder may pick up on, and a beginner may not.
For example scattering hay around a cage sometimes indicates that the doe finds the nestbox style or placement unsuitable. Changing the box, or simply relocating it may be all that is needed to save a litter.
Sometimes does refuse to feed due to feeling threatened by a predator, or perhaps simply a domestic pet. It can take a while to catch on.
Or maybe, a beginner has a trio of breeding age all in one cage (very common), and suddenly separates them all only after kits arrive.

I'm sure there are more factors, but I can't really think of right now. :lol: I just finished a 12 hour shift. I'm beat.


Once people get a feel for troubleshooting, it seems like they do tend to become more strict.

 

[Rainey]

Thanks for all the experience shared. We haven't had health problems until a couple kits had nest box eye this crazy spring. What I was really wondering about was the milk production since that is so critical. If a doe can't or won't feed her first litter, would you keep her and try again? My inclination after our experience with such a doe last spring would be not to breed her again. Just wondering if that is too strict or just prudent.

 

[Marinea]

If the doe isn't a first timer, and you can't chalk the problem up to something else, I would not rebreed her. I don't breed year round, and a non-productive doe throws me off my plans for an entire season.

 

[alforddm]

I think I've been really really lucky with my rabbits. I will have been breeding 1.5 years and have only lost 1 litter. That was a first time mom who's instincts kicked in a bit late. She had the litter in the nextbox but didn't pull fur until after they had chilled. If I had found them a bit earlier (I tried to warm them but didn't help) I think she would have done fine. Second litter was great. However, I have better does and I'm keeping stock back from my best doe.

My point is when stock breeds like mine (again I was lucky with my stock I can't take credit), I don't feel all 3 strikes are necessary. I haven't had to employ strikes at all, but when I do (I'm sure I will eventually), they will get 2 strikes at most and unless their kits are exceptional, I won't hold back stock. Easy breeding and good mothering abilities, are in my opinion, one of, if not the most important characteristics for rabbits, if your not getting kits, your not making meat or money.

When your not worrying about breeding you can concentrate on other things, like growth and type.

Of course I may feel this way because that is my rabbits best point in my rabbits. If I had poor breeding rabbits with stellar type I may feel differently, which is probably why show stock tends to have smaller litters and less mothering abilities.

 

[Prisma]

On milk production, I find genetic. Good dams, good daughts. However, I have purchased does that were near worn out, their milk supply terrible but it wasn't their fault genetic wise. Daughters do just fine. Age and history have to be taken into account. 3 strikes...for me is 3 fails on the doe or buck with no outside factors. However, I don't count attitude or kit health in that, there's no strikes for that. Give me sick, be aggressive, spawn aggressive...you become dinner.

 

[akane]

I've only had one milk production issue. Demon rabbit developed mastitis. Since it was demon rabbit and mastitis often causes repeat problems she was culled as soon as her litter could survive without her. She had a lot of temperament strikes against her and for generations does would not willingly breed with the line of bucks I kept from demon rabbit to see the inheritance of her personality traits. I have had does that couldn't raise larger numbers of kits when fostered but I don't think it was lack of milk. I'm not sure why some of the champagnes could only ever keep 5 alive irregardless of what was born or given to them. It's not a horrible number of big, fat champagnes to have born and raised without fail so I was fine with it and just quit trying to foster to them.

 

[Zass]

I've never had milk production issues, especially with first time does.
My harlequins seem to be able to feed 9 pretty comfortably, and 10 with a bit less to go around. I haven't left a doe with a litter over that size, since they are only in the 8 lb range. I don't really expect them to feed 12 or 13, like some of the flemish crosses.


There was one senior mutt doe I purchased. She had been a successful mother before, but refused to feed litters for me. I tried twice, and wish I hadn't. Autopsy revealed small abscesses in her teats. It must have been vary painful for her.

I culled one harlequin doe for failing to get pregnant 3 times. She was grotesquely obese. The fattest rabbit I've ever processed. That was the result of my husband taking over bunny chores when I first started working.


I did have a first timer nurse her kits well right up to 3 weeks and then suddenly wean. I culled her, and don't regret it. She probably had some health issue I just failed to detect.

With only a few cages, I can't really afford to hang on to anything that creates a headache.

 

[Rainey]

I've never had milk production issues, especially with first time does.
My harlequins seem to be able to feed 9 pretty comfortably, and 10 with a bit less to go around. I haven't left a doe with a litter over that size, since they are only in the 8 lb range. I don't really expect them to feed 12 or 13, like some of the flemish crosses.

One of my meat mutt does is closer to 7 pounds than 8 and she kindled a litter of 13 and raised 12 of them last year. It was her sister who was a bit bigger that we culled after she failed to feed both the litters she kindled. I don't understand genetics very well, but would have expected them to be more similar than that. I'm working with a small number of rabbits, all related, and most of them are healthy and good enough for our purpose (meat for the family) and I'll just keep culling what I don't want. Just wish I understood better, that there was some way to know before trying them which does won't feed kits.

 

[akane]

My creme was more like 10 lbs but she raised 12 average. That was the only reason I kept her. I couldn't get more quality cremes and I didn't particularly like her but she could sure pop out those kits in all seasons and weather extremes. I don't think I ever had her lose a litter and I don't think she ever had less than 10. I did use her in my short meat mutt experiment. Those silvered torts could have become their own breed. Interesting color and high production but we wanted to move to something a little smaller and try to get more sales with purebreds.

 

[alforddm]

Those silvered torts could have become their own breed.

Do you have pictures? I would love to see how the silvered coat looks like on a tort.

 

[ladysown]

My inclination after our experience with such a doe last spring would be not to breed her again. Just wondering if that is too strict or just prudent.

That is something we can't really judge.

IF given your experience keeping back poor mothering/milking does is not worth the risk then put her in your freezer. I've had does I've culled for one issue... You just make your decisions and don't second guess them.

 

[akane]

Indoors

With sunlight

 

[alforddm]

Thank you, that is pretty awesome looking.

 

[SEP board]

If a doe can't or won't feed her first litter, would you keep her and try again? My inclination after our experience with such a doe last spring would be not to breed her again. Just wondering if that is too strict or just prudent.

It's been pretty heart-wrenching and stressful so far. The first doe had two still born and the second had 8 healthy but just didn't feed. We've been doing the assisted but have lost 7 of the 8. The first four were lost by the time we figured out she wasn't feeding and it was too late. She seemed to start nursing but then stopped so we lost two more. One was a stupid thing that really upset me. Since the doe never pulled fur we put in that dustless paper bedding that has worked well. We also put in cotton. I thought I had frayed it out really well but I guess not because then next one lost, yesterday morning, got cotton wrapped around her neck. That REALLY sucked because that kit was really doing well. So we've got one left. Still doing the assisted nursing twice a day. She must be producing some milk, hopefully enough. She has plenty of food and fresh water and parsley out of the garden.

I chalk this up to my fault in that I breed her too early. I will wait a few months and then try it again, but really don't want to go through the same thing. If she does the same thing then that's it for her. That may be harsh but I'm not going to risk a third time with the same thing. Too stressful and too much of a family issue to be worth it. In a few months the doe with be 7-8 months old and she's of good size. We have a fenced in backyard so it's a safe environment. So that's the best that I can offer and if it isn't enough the second time around there will be no third time around.

I'll be waiting the same time period before I breed #1 again as well (they're sisters).

 

[akane]

My first litter resulted in the doe prolapsing both horns of the uterus, being put down, and the kits slowly dying after I managed to hand feed them to the 10 day eye opening stage. Beat that for a first experience : This hobby has a steep learning curve when starting out and often you deal with deaths of kits and even does before you establish a successful breeding group. I would suggest when new not to cull too strictly because there may be mistakes you are making, the rabbits may just be adjusting to a new home and system of doing things, and you often need the stock to get established. Once you are having successful litters cull anyone who is not keeping up or had far more problems getting there than the others and evaluate the remainder for weaknesses and strengths. Then you know traits you need to look for and ask breeders about in new stock to improve your starter herd when necessary.

Breeding too early is not a problem in my opinion and others are finding it to be true. Breed the does asap and they often do better. They don't stunt in growth or anything like some other animals will. I would never wait 8months. The small breeds I might have bred by 3months and often 4-5 for large breeds. The giants are the only ones I would consider waiting a full 8months. If they fail at the litter breed them quickly again (maybe a week break) unless they have any health problem. If they got really skinny, overly pluck themselves bald to make a nest, or sometimes their genitals can be swollen and damaged if a big kit had to be pulled out by them then give them more time to recover. Breaks are bad things when breeding rabbits. They do need some breaks which are often forced on you by weather extremes anyway but the longer they go without breeding the harder they are to breed and the worse they seem to do. It will just lead to increased frustration and if the doe remains in healthy condition it is not a problem to breed close together. The lack of a working breeding schedule combined with young does is often the biggest hurdle for beginners to get over.

 

[Marinea]

I agree with Akane. My does are bred for the first time at around 5-6 months. Maybe I have been lucky, but I have yet to have a first timer not kindle, and I have not lost a first timer's litter. The occasional kit has been lost, but I can't blame any of my losses on the does.

I have been breeding my does twice a year. I went to three times this past spring, and I have noticed they did better with each successive breeding. It is a habit I will continue.