1st post, new guy, a few hopefully not-so-common questions

[enter_address_here]

Okay, hi, besides a comment in the Welcome thread, this is my first post.

I have a couple questions, more complex questions that I can't seem to find the answers to. I will give you a intro which you can feel free to skip if there is a possibility it will deter you from getting to my questions and providing answers.

Intro Start
This is my first time, I have no previous experience, but I have read, listened, and watched a lot of info so far. I am ready to get rabbits, and supplies within the week. I live near Dallas Texas and plan on running an outside colony style; I'm fully aware of the heat, will provide the rabbits plenty of natural shade, small enclosures, the ability to burrow, misters, and a box fan located within the largest enclosure.

I'm actually located in a suburb, so I have a wooden fenced backyard, not a lot of land like most seem to have. I'm prepared to dig 18in down around my yard and will be setting hardware cloth or chicken wire within it to deter burrowing free. I have responsible older children, myself and my wife, so we will be able to consistently monitor them. We are prepared to hutch them at night if needed, but will attempt to deter them so it won't be necessary.

Obviously we don't have the backyard enclosed, so there is a predator problem we can't ignore, however, in the 2 years in this home, I have seen 1 racoon and 2 worm sized snakes. There technically are large birds in our area, but my parent in laws who live outside of town (even more infested with predators) have had no problem with their 7lb dogs being bothered. I think it's unlikely they will have problems, but if so, hutches and other enclosures will be available.

There are other misc things to consider, but those were the big ones.
Intro End

Now for the questions.

I keep hearing that New Zealand whites are a great size with the best meat to bone ratio. I also heard however that unless feeding them pellets, it's unlikely they will acheive this great weight. I would like to feed them weeds, twigs, and grass from my yard, along with bales of Timothy Hay, Alfalfa grass, and vegetable scraps.

Then I heard about Great chinchilla rabbits. I can't get a straight answer, but I've heard both that they have a good meat to bone ration and they have a bad meat to bone ratio for being a meat rabbit and they have a better stomach than new zealands for natural foods opposed to pellets. I can't find the article I read that anywhere, but I thought that if they are better with natural foods than New Zealand whites and still provide good meat, than they might be a better option.

I think there are questions somewhere in there. I can't for the life of me find a good site with info on meat/bone ratio per breed, average live and dressed weight, and best diet.

Sorry this is a long post, I have been searching to avoid asking the same questions as other people and I will continue looking as well. Thanks.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

I keep hearing that New Zealand whites are a great size with the best meat to bone ratio. I also heard however that unless feeding them pellets, it's unlikely they will acheive this great weight. I would like to feed them weeds, twigs, and grass from my yard, along with bales of Timothy Hay, Alfalfa grass, and vegetable scraps.

The answer is...sortof. I didn't DISlike my NZ...but there's a reason I sure don't have any now and didn't want to breed/keep them. For that kind of setup, I heartily suggest heritage meat breeds. To be fair though, I'm biased...I always prefer heritage breeds for meat than the more "common" commercially available ones.

I have really enjoyed my Champagnes, and while I am feeding pellets, I also feed "kitchen waste" (think romaine remnants, carrot tops, et cetera) and my Champagne buck has a freaking cast-iron stomach. He can and will eat ANYTHING. My dad asked if he could "treat" the rabbits with an apple...I assumed he'd cut it up and give each bun a slice. NOPE, he tossed a WHOLE APPLE into Brut's cage!!! And he ate it ALL!!! No ill effects, no runny poops, nothing. Then again this is just my anecdotal experience, YMMV.

I'm a big fan of Champagnes, Palominos, Cinnamons...they are very cool breeds and all yield good meat.

 

[Dood]

I raise American Chinchillas and crossbreds. In my experience they have wonderful, calm 'pet' temperaments, are excellent mothers (and fathers) and are a bit finer boned than NZ.

My first year I was getting to 5 pounds in 8-10 weeks feeding 18% pellets and grass hay. But this year I switched to feeding 70% fresh forage and 30% pellets and my rabbits growth plummeted but I also got a really bad case of hepatic coccidia so that obviously contributed to the problem.

I finally got the coccidia under control by the end of June and my purebred kits were getting to 5 pounds by 12 weeks on the forage diet and looking AMAZING they practically glowed with health and I plan to go the same route next spring.

BUT

There is no prefect breed or bloodline for every environment and raising rabbits in Texas has some unique challenges.

I suggest you find a local meat breeder who feeds lots if forage and hay and has been breeding rabbits in your climate for a few years. Regardless of breed they will likely be your best bet.

 

[dobergoat]

I'm new with rabbits ( 2 years), we have Brun Argente ( same family as Champagnes). Really good bone to meat ratio, and they do well on grass/pasture/hay natural type diet. We do suppliment with pellets though for the nursing does and the growing kits, but the majority of the feed is pasture and hay. At 3-3.5 months ours dress out at 1.4 - 1.7 kg, and they live weight is around 6 lbs. If we raise them without any pellets it takes 4-4.5 months to hit that weight. I found it takes alot of pasture to feed a growing rabbit. We had to suppliment, for us it turned out to be the best. Ours also have alot of space, so they burn energy so take longer to grow.

Not sure if this helps

I agree with Dood, being so hot where you are I would look for a local breeders ( or one from similar climate) that raises the way you plan on doing it. So the rabbits are aclimatized and it will be easier for you in the long run.

 

[PSFAngoras]

A lot of good info above, but I would also like to state that you should be open to mutts as well. You may be able to find stock quicker and cheaper than pure bred stock, not to mention most people who just breed for meat and don't care about breed will use the hardiest rabbits they can get their hands on, regardless of breed. Rabbits that don't perform are usually culled, resulting in mutt stock that usually has a good grow out rate, resistance to disease, and perform well for your area, so long as you buy in the area. I would suggest asking for proof on grow out times though, such as asking to see certain aged kits, just to make sure they're not pulling the wool over your eyes.

 

[Peach]

I like what was suggested above.

I would think going with someone that has raised and culled in the style you would like would be better than trying to take some that have been raised in a barn or A/C.

I was also thinking that maybe getting meat mutt rabbits that fit the criteria and taking a nice blocky,meaty buck and breeding him to all you does and letting the strongest survive of those litters might be an option.

I have a mix doe that like Kyle, can eat ANYTHING! Nothing can throw her off, so when weeds are plentiful, or I'm not using my herbs too much but they are growing like crazy, I just give her a pile to enjoy since she's pretty much a pet that gives us meat litters. I did try free ranging with some pellets for supplements and she got VERY skinny. To keep up with her eating, her outdoor enclosure had to be moved frequently.<br /><br />__________ Fri Nov 15, 2013 8:28 am __________<br /><br />And welcome to RT! Rabbits are a very fun hobby Lucky you, ARBA Convention is going to take place the first week of November in Fort Worth, TX next year! My Dad LOVES Texas (Even called my brother Austin Travis) so when I told him about it, he was immediately stoked

 

[enter_address_here]

Thank you everyone for the information, it's all helpful.


At Kyle@theHeathertoft, I'm starting to think that I settled on New Zealand Whites without investigating all types of breeds simply because they were the most common I read about.

Is there a good thread on the differences in breeds? Pros, cons, growth rate, climate preference, hutch vs colony preference?

At Dood, does finer boned mean more boned? I read that they are pretty similar bone structure wise, but feeding the NZ pellets gets them larger quicker.

Can you explain what the percentages mean when calculating diets in food. I've tried to find info, but am having problems. I've read over and over again that you want to give them 16-18% protein and all that, but I don't know what that means so I don't know how to convert those supplements into alternative foods.

How long did it take you to recover from the coccidia? Was it diagnosed quickly? Did you know how it started? I think that's one of the things I might take for granted in a colony, it will be harder to monitor eating habits and probably take longer to notice those kind of problems.

If I'm correct, with an average meat to bone ratio, a live weight of 5lbs will have about 2.5lbs to 3 lbs of meat correct?

I plan on meeting with someone today, and several next week. I'll keep you all posted.


At dobergoat, when you started, how smoothly did everything go? I always hear the first litter will be small and the weights will be low as well. It takes time to get them to fill out and to get in the rhythm of things. Was there anything that came up that you didn't expect or plan for?

I'm learning that foraging/colony will fit what I believe to be the best to keep them happy and give the rabbits the most fulfillment, but yeah, it will take substantially longer to grow them.


At PSFAngoras, does Mutt have a more specific term than just random wild rabbit? Is it cross breeding? Do you still concern yourself with breeding history of mutts? I never really read much about them.

You all seem to have experience with it, so this is something for all. Concerning a natural forage diet of backyard plants, alfalfa and hay; I'm curious how accurate the below definitions are and how different the meat quality will be since they are growing slower.

Fryer- term used for when a rabbit reaches butchering age/weight. This is usually around 8 weeks and 5 lbs for commercial breeds of rabbits.

Roaster- a rabbit older and larger than a fryer. Should be baked with lots of liquid to make it moister and easier to eat.

Stewer - old and large rabbit. Considered to be tough and dry and requiring long boiling to make it easier to chew.

Thank you all again.

Edit, I missed Peach's post. Yeah, I might just start going to every breeder around until I find someone whose style best fits my own. Thanks. Maybe by this time next year, I can learn enough to appreciate the convention, sounds exciting. Thanks.

 

[Dood]

At Dood, does finer boned mean more boned? .

it means the bones are lighter and more delicate so you get a better meat to bone ratio.

How long did it take you to recover from the coccidia? Was it diagnosed quickly? Did you know how it started?

It is still here but I have changed some things so the kits don't get so sick from it and I am keeping the female kits that are the least affected to breed for resistance as I want to stick with free forage and not go back to just pellets.

I only noticed it in the kits and ended up culling and doing a necropsy on one to see what I was dealing with.

I am pretty sure it was introduced from forage that was contaminated by wild cottontails.

 

[enter_address_here]

I am pretty sure it was introduced from forage that was contaminated by wild cottontails.

Does contamination mean a wild rabbit that has coccidiosis previously ate in that same spot? I thought it was mostly a sanitation thing. Sorry, this is all really new to me.

 

[Marinea]

Welcome to RT, EAH!

At PSFAngoras, does Mutt have a more specific term than just random wild rabbit? Is it cross breeding? Do you still concern yourself with breeding history of mutts? I never really read much about them.

I am obviously not PSFAngoras, but "meat mutt" is generally a mixed breed rabbit raised for...meat. For example, you might start with your New Zealands, and then come across a gorgeous big block of a Chinchilla buck and breed one of your NZ does to him. The resulting kits would be meat mutts.

We have a poster here, I believe her name is Pepperoni (hope that's right), who lives in Texas and has a colony style setup. You might want to search for her thread where she has lots of pics and describes her setup. It is pretty awesome, and might give you some ideas.

 

[enter_address_here]

At Marinea,

Yes, I'll look Pepperoni up right now. Thanks.

Edit, there is a Pepperoni, but in Michigan. No problem though, I'm sure a couple narrow searches could help me find a couple Texans with outdoor colonies.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

cocci.. comes from the ground... When you go colony set up.. there is allot to think about. Cocci is easier to get being on the ground.. and when you pick your weeds ect.. you have to deworm your rabbits at least once a year.. they do grower slower on no pellets .. How many are you looking to raise ...in what size of pen ? How many does to bucks ratio ect.

 

[Marinea]

I found the poster! It's not Pepperoni, it's Paradox! Here is the thread

http://rabbittalk.com/paradox-s-bunny-caves-for-miss-m-t15325.html

(hope that works)

 

[enter_address_here]

At Mary Ann's Rabbitry, Anyway to treat your ground to avoid this?

I live in town, not in the country, so I have a decent fenced yard for a suburb, the rabbits will probably have free range of most of it. I looked up all the weeds, trees, and grass, none of it's harmful to rabbits.

At first, I was thinking about just 1 buck and 4 does, now I'm thinking of going for a variety of breeds so maybe 2 bucks at first, experiment with different breeds and see what works best.

At Marinea, thanks.

 

[skysthelimit]

It's hard to make a comparison between feeding an exact amount of protein from a bag, and the protein levels of misc forage. But there are some forages/weeds/plants, that are highly digestible and high in protein, like alfalfa, and mulberry leaves. With good alfalfa hay as a basis of your diet, you can get rabbits to do pretty well.

 

[ramblingrabbit]

Sounds like a great project, and I wish you the best of luck!

Stewer - old and large rabbit. Considered to be tough and dry and requiring long boiling to make it easier to chew.

Just wanted to amend one very minor point: you never want to "boil" a stewing rabbit, or any other meat from an older animal--you want to just very gently simmer it to preserve the quality and flavor while gradually breaking down the strong tissues that makes it tough. Adding an acidic ingredient helps too (wine, tomato paste, curdled milk). But it's the combination of LOW HEAT and long cooking time that does the trick, not JUST extending the cooking time. Sorry, I'm just really detail-oriented and wanted to clarify that. :hi:

Cheers!

 

[enter_address_here]

Sounds like a great project, and I wish you the best of luck!

Stewer - old and large rabbit. Considered to be tough and dry and requiring long boiling to make it easier to chew.

Just wanted to amend one very minor point: you never want to "boil" a stewing rabbit, or any other meat from an older animal--you want to just very gently simmer it to preserve the quality and flavor while gradually breaking down the strong tissues that makes it tough. Adding an acidic ingredient helps too (wine, tomato paste, curdled milk). But it's the combination of LOW HEAT and long cooking time that does the trick, not JUST extending the cooking time. Sorry, I'm just really detail-oriented and wanted to clarify that. :hi:

Cheers!

No need to apologize, that is important information, in another 4 months rabbit will be a big part of our diet and I want to do it right. Thanks.

 

[Mary Ann's Rabbitry]

At Mary Ann's Rabbitry, Anyway to treat your ground to avoid this?

I live in town, not in the country, so I have a decent fenced yard for a suburb, the rabbits will probably have free range of most of it. I looked up all the weeds, trees, and grass, none of it's harmful to rabbits.

At first, I was thinking about just 1 buck and 4 does, now I'm thinking of going for a variety of breeds so maybe 2 bucks at first, experiment with different breeds and see what works best.

At Marinea, thanks.

This might help to explain everything..

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_coccidia.html

http://www.medirabbit.com/EN/GI_disease ... occ_en.htm

 

[PSFAngoras]

As Marinea said, yes, they are rabbits that bred on traits, vs breeds, so you basically end up with very hardy, very mixed breed rabbits. I do personally keep track of my mixes, so I can see what seems to work well together and what doesn't. It may also help you decide what to breed to also if you decide to plan for certain pelt colors if you plan on tanning, so knowing you have a mix of "x" and "y", who might potentially carry this or that color since they're breed only calls for limited colors...

It can be a mess sometimes.

There are also some breeds that produce large, faster growing offspring when crossed with another certain breed (Californians crossed with Flemish comes to mind), and it does produce a kind of hybrid vigor in the first generation I've heard, but the kits bred out from these will likely be all over the board size wise, so it does help to know. In those cases too.

 

[Kyle@theWintertime]

At Kyle@theHeathertoft, I'm starting to think that I settled on New Zealand Whites without investigating all types of breeds simply because they were the most common I read about.

Is there a good thread on the differences in breeds? Pros, cons, growth rate, climate preference, hutch vs colony preference?

Sorry it took me so long to reply, I don't check every part of the forum these days due to time constraints.

I am by no means an expert, but for climate preference...I'd ask local breeders. They will have lines that are suited to your area. The few of each breed I've had (NZ and Champagnes), they grew at comparable speed and attained good weight by processing age...but I really, REALLY like the Champagnes for temperament better. They are more docile and sweet, easier for me to handle, and to top it off they're super-pretty. But like I said, I'm by no means an expert and all that is anecdotal experience I've had, YMMV!