Silver Fox -- Harlequin?

Frecs · Jun 5, 2013

Another issue I need help understanding:

I was also advised that one of my does has a harlequin doe in her pedigree -- about three does back. Before I knew this, I had bred this doe to her son. No harlequin kits resulted which tells me that either she doesn't have it or she didn't pass it to her son. My breeder friend is going to get a harlequin SF to test breed the buck they have that is also this doe's son...trying to prove whether their buck has the gene. I'll then be able to test breed my buck to see if he has it.

Anyway, what I want to understand is -- what does a harlequin SF look like? What is the harlequin gene?

WildWolf · Jun 5, 2013

I've never heard of a harlequin SF... I'd like to know the answer too- I have SF. Hopefully someone more experienced can help!

ladysown · Jun 5, 2013

harlequin silver fox? my guess based on what a harlequin x brun looks like... is a harlequin with silvering.

Frecs · Jun 5, 2013

And to clarify: harlequin in Silver Foxes is an unwelcome occurrence. If I'm remembering the info correctly, it showed up because the breeder of the doe with the harlequin gene was out-crossing (if that is the right word - using non-Silver Fox rabbits to try to achieve some goal or other). Those non-Silver Fox rabbits don't show on the pedigree because they are more than 3 generations back. I would never have thought to research this but my breeder friends are very serious and want to play in the big boy pool so when I gave them a buck, they researched the background on the pedigree. They like this buck's body structure and want to keep him which is why they are looking to get a harlequin to test breed him to. If they can prove he isn't a carrier, he's a keeper. Otherwise, he will be sold to a meat breeder.

Wyldrose · Jun 5, 2013

If he does carry it and you just breed him to SF's that have no harli in their peds he won't sire any.
So if he is what you want in a buck then there is no need to cull. Just watch who you cross him too. With any animal recessive traits can be carried many many generations and then all of a sudden it matches up.

WallTenter · Jul 4, 2013

Not sure what the genetics are of a silver fox, but I can tell you if you breed the buck to non extension does (think torts) you should have some harlies pop up in those litters (might be crummy looking harlequins, but you'll see at least some faint striping).

Dood · Jul 5, 2013

Silver fox are self blacks with the silver gene. You cannot 'see' the harlequin in a self rabbit so I believe a harli silver fox will look like a regular silver fox, unless the harli gene causes the silver hairs to have a brindle or motling effect like the rabbits in the middle of this post... what-is-the-difference-genetically-too-please-t14205.html?hilit=Harlequin

To

prove he isn't a carrier

My first choice would be to test breed to a fawn or a red , these colours are more common in meat breeds than torts but that mating would also work. If he is a carrier then 50% of the offspring will be obvious harlequins with out any doubts about where the harli gene came from. However, if you get any blacks from such a mating, they 'could' hide the harli gene.

WallTenter · Jul 8, 2013

Dood":3lgyn0cs said:
Silver fox are self blacks with the silver gene. You cannot 'see' the harlequin in a self rabbit so I believe a harli silver fox will look like a regular silver fox, unless the harli gene causes the silver hairs to have a brindle or motling effect like the rabbits in the middle of this post... what-is-the-difference-genetically-too-please-t14205.html?hilit=Harlequin

To

prove he isn't a carrier

Click to expand...

My first choice would be to test breed to a fawn or a red , these colours are more common in meat breeds than torts but that mating would also work. If he is a carrier then 50% of the offspring will be obvious harlequins with out any doubts about where the harli gene came from. However, if you get any blacks from such a mating, they 'could' hide the harli gene.

If they are aa you can see the harlequin in them - it should show up just fine if they are not full extension or steel (E or ES) they would be a torted harlequin, unless silver covers it as well...

aaEej = harlequin carrier (though it might show through a little, I don't know)
vs
aaeje = torted harlequin

I have no clue what the silvering gene would do w/ the japanese... would be interesting to see a photo of the ancestor that was a proven japanese carrier? Did it actually show up with that animal still w/ the silvering or ?? __________ Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:10 am __________

WallTenter":3lgyn0cs said:
Dood":3lgyn0cs said:

Silver fox are self blacks with the silver gene. You cannot 'see' the harlequin in a self rabbit so I believe a harli silver fox will look like a regular silver fox, unless the harli gene causes the silver hairs to have a brindle or motling effect like the rabbits in the middle of this post... what-is-the-difference-genetically-too-please-t14205.html?hilit=Harlequin

To

prove he isn't a carrier

Click to expand...

My first choice would be to test breed to a fawn or a red , these colours are more common in meat breeds than torts but that mating would also work. If he is a carrier then 50% of the offspring will be obvious harlequins with out any doubts about where the harli gene came from. However, if you get any blacks from such a mating, they 'could' hide the harli gene.

Click to expand...

If they are aa you can see the harlequin in them - it should show up just fine if they are not full extension or steel (E or ES) they would be a torted harlequin, unless silver covers it as well...

aaEej = harlequin carrier (though it might show through a little, I don't know)
vs
aaeje = torted harlequin

I have no clue what the silvering gene would do w/ the japanese... would be interesting to see a photo of the ancestor that was a proven japanese carrier? Did it actually show up with that animal still w/ the silvering or ??

blegh I'm too tired.. they are aaEE yes? So yes they could hide the harlequin gene (not because of the aa but because of the EE)

Frecs · Jul 12, 2013

As an interesting turn of events, a Silver Fox breeder on a FB list has come forward and advised the group that her herd is carrying both a wool and a harlequin gene. As it happens, two of my four starter herd breeders come from her. I have copied a little of what she posted so I can ask questions based on it:

… I got an odd rabbit out of one of my lines, a torted rabbit...proves to carry the non extension (e). When I first saw him, I did what I thought was the right thing and immediately halted my sales on those lines. My first thought was that he was a torted harlequin, if you've seen him, you see the split face. I had thought the breeder had accidently crossed something--not that he had anything but whites, but you don't know what other people do...and whites can carry anything. …I have another tort (red) in the nestbox that is a few days old. 3 weeks ago, I bred the first red to both of his granddams, one of them being one of my original herd does. That doe came to me with the others as fully pedigreed, purebred Silver Fox. She had her babies early yesterday. 3 of them. I found them dead in her cage since she was 6 days early. …...of those 3 babies, 2 were black. One was a black japanese harlequin. ….
… My intent is to run a series of test breeds against every doe related to this one. I am going to use the torted harlequin to find and separate who is carrying harlequin and who is carrying non-extension. I have also sent an email with Sutter Genetics at Cornell University. I am asking them if they'd be interested in a study like this, and run swabs from the rabbits who may be in question. …
… I am asking that anyone who may have a rabbit with my name on it to run a test breed on that rabbit. This is something I feel very strongly about. This is what happens when crossbreeding is done. This is recessives at work. It is not known for sure how far back behind this rabbit that that recessive came from to start with...and it will never be known. It could be 1 year, or 5 years, or 15, or even 25. It could be that someone made up a nice piece of paper. Something I will never know. Something out of our hands until it shows itself. (BTW, The breeder does not raise rabbits anymore, that I know of...thank goodness.)

Her suggestion for test breeding my herd was:

A torted angora, or Sable point angora should pull out something.

So, the beginning of my questions:

What are extension and non-extension genes?
What do they do or not do?
How do I even begin testing or should I just figure my herd is doomed to be meat producers only and if I want better I'll have to start over with fresh stock?

From what I've been told the wool gene requires both sire and dam to carry it for it to appear while the harle gene does not necessarily. I just noticed the day before she made her post on FB that one of my 6 week old kits is quite woolie so that gene is coming out within my herd. (Both sire and dam of that kit are from Summer 4's line and apparently Summer 4 carries both harle and wool.) I've not yet seen any harle's.

WildWolf · Jul 12, 2013

extention and non-extension are 2 of the "E" series. Normal extension is "E"- the colors on the hair shaft are expressed normally. non-extension is "e"- it works with whatever is in the "C" series, and whatever modifiers your rabbit has, and removes most or all of the black pigment.

You test by breeding your SF rabbit to another rabbit that you know has non extension ("e") or the wool gene. If you breed to a torted or sable point angora, both of which have the non extension gene and the wool gene, then you look at the babies. If you have a baby that has wool, then your SF carries the wool gene. If you have a baby that is a color that has a non extension gene (ex. tort, sable point, red, fawn, cream, ect.) then your SF rabbit carries the "e" gene. The reason this works is because "e" and the wool gene are ressesive... unless your rabbit is a torted harlequin ("eje"- one harlequin gene, one non extension gene)- the harlequin gene cannot always hide the non extension gene.

To put it simply: to see a harlequin out of your SF, you have to breed the SF to something that carries a non extension or harlequin gene. To see a wooly SF (is it wrong that I think that a wooly SF would be awesome?) you have to breed the SF to a wooly rabbit.

I hoped that helped... someone correct me if I'm wrong! I'm just learning genetics.

So- Summer 4 carries BOTH wool and harlequin gene? I just want to double check... one of my SF's great grandparent is Summer 4- on both his dam's and sire's side.

Frecs · Jul 12, 2013

WildWolf":2w5qu0b2 said:
extention and non-extension are 2 of the "E" series. Normal extension is "E"- the colors on the hair shaft are expressed normally. non-extension is "e"- it works with whatever is in the "C" series, and whatever modifiers your rabbit has, and removes most or all of the black pigment.

You test by breeding your SF rabbit to another rabbit that you know has non extension ("e") or the wool gene. If you breed to a torted or sable point angora, both of which have the non extension gene and the wool gene, then you look at the babies. If you have a baby that has wool, then your SF carries the wool gene. If you have a baby that is a color that has a non extension gene (ex. tort, sable point, red, fawn, cream, ect.) then your SF rabbit carries the "e" gene. The reason this works is because "e" and the wool gene are ressesive... unless your rabbit is a torted harlequin ("eje"- one harlequin gene, one non extension gene)- the harlequin gene cannot always hide the non extension gene.

I hoped that helped... someone correct me if I'm wrong! I'm just learning genetics.

So- Summer 4 carries BOTH wool and harlequin gene? I just want to double check... one of my SF's great grandparent is Summer 4- on both his dam's and sire's side.

That helps. Thanks.

Yes, Summer 4 carries both harlequin and wool genes. Also, look for any rabbits on the pedigree with "Starck" as the breeder.

WildWolf · Jul 12, 2013

Well... I guess I'll be test breeding mine once I get some tri color and harlequin Rexes...

Frecs · Jul 12, 2013

Now to find me a torted or sable point angora...a good excuse for another woolie in my herd....

WildWolf · Jul 12, 2013

So does anyone know what a SF harlequin would look like?

__________ Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:18 am __________

Edit: I looked on Starck's facebook- the harlequins SF look like normal harlequins.
And the wooly SF looks awesome!!! I know that some people might disagree with this but... I love that wooly SF!

__________ Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:21 am __________

Also- Frecs do mind sending me a PM or just posting here any updates in the progress of Starck's tests? I don't have a facebook, so it is very hard (and sometimes impossible) to see all the posts.
Just wanted to add: My SF buck has Starck's 2OP5, Onyx, Summer 4, Edy, Jasper, Whisper, and 2MW3. So far all I know is that Edy and Summer 4 carry harlequin, and Summer 4 carries wool. Know anything about the others?

Frecs · Jul 12, 2013

The wooly SF is beautiful and tempting to desire if one wants to spin (if it even is good for spinning). But definitely not SOP.

I'll try to keep you posted on the progress. I've got to figure out where I go from here...stick with my current stock and just breed meat rabbits for my freezer or improve/replace my stock to have the ability to breed some sellable rabbits. __________ Fri Jul 12, 2013 9:32 am __________ Or, switch over to AmChins...

LauraNJ · Jul 12, 2013

Sometimes in beverens you have a wooly kit and they normally molt out to the correct coat. Don't know if it would work the same in SF but thought I'd share that.

I wouldn't be so concerned if some other breed was crossed in long ago. Perhaps it was to make them more hardy, or to improve type. Inbreeding/linebreeding is great in rabbits but eventually there is a decrease in litter sizes, in hardiness and at that point a breeder has to decide what to do. In a rare breed the gene pool is limited already so outcrossing to another breed is sometimes what is needed.

I would just cull anything that is not correct color and perhaps find another SF from a different line that is clear from the harli and angora gene that you can breed to and know that you won't produce it.

Frecs · Jul 12, 2013

Apparently, the wooly SF's do not molt away that wooly coat. :-(

The harle gene is a very undesirable gene in SFs and no one breeding for breed preservation/showing wants it anywhere in their rabbits' gene pool. That is why this breeder stopped selling rabbits when she realized what was happening and has made the announcement so folks who have rabbits from her can decide what they want to do. If I want to sell pedigreed SFs, I need to either prove my stock does not carry the gene, or get stock that does not (or has not show itself in the lineage). The reason it became apparent and was narrowed down to Summer 4 is because the breeder was linebreeding (responsibly) and it brought out what linebreeding brings out--recessive genes.

I'm not aiming to compete with the likes of Riverwinds or anything but I'd like to breed quality rabbits and not knowingly pass on such undesirable genetics (even if it is not evident).

WildWolf · Jul 12, 2013

Frecs":3r6khpl1 said:
[...] I've got to figure out where I go from here...stick with my current stock and just breed meat rabbits for my freezer or improve/replace my stock to have the ability to breed some sellable rabbits.[...] Or, switch over to AmChins...

If I were you, I'd go ahead and test breed your rabbits. Who knows- your rabbits might not even carry either the harlequin or the wooly gene! If they do have either one of those genes, then you could send them to the freezer/send their kits to the freezer/pet them out. Or you could replace them. The only way to improve them would be to breed them to a pure SF, and cull any carriers. However, to find out who is a carrier, you must breed them. That's a lot of extra rabbits, unless you have a huge freezer and are wiling to spend that time/food raising the culls. Or, you could cull everyone and switch to AmChins and leave behind a beautiful, sweet, rare, heritage breed (I'm bias, I know). But... if your rabbits don't carry the harle/wooly genes, then you can just continue breeding as normal.

Frecs":3r6khpl1 said:
[...]I'll try to keep you posted on the progress.

Thanks!! I just calculated that, if Summer 4 and Edy are the only carriers of the harlequin gene on my buck's pedigree, then my buck has a 3/32 chance of being Eej, and a 1/64 chance of being ejej (except that I can see that he is not ejej)... I don't want him to be a carrier for the harlequin gene, but I kinda want him to be a wooly carrier- then I can have woolies next year! :mrgreen:

edited to add: oh, I just saw your post about what you might do. Ignore the first part of my post then

Secuono · Jul 12, 2013

Why is it sad that they don't molt away he coat? For harvest?
I found the FB page, showed up quick in a search, neat experiments, glad to know what to avoid though.

Does the wool have silvering, too?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... nt_count=4

Frecs · Jul 12, 2013

ChickiesnBunnies":3g7ay3b7 said:
Why is it sad that they don't molt away he coat? For harvest?
I found the FB page, showed up quick in a search, neat experiments, glad to know what to avoid though.

Does the wool have silvering, too?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid ... nt_count=4

Just commenting that it isn't a feature that molts out. That is probably a good thing in that it can not be hidden from potential buyers. And yes, they can have silvering with the wool. I see that the breeder's wooly has strong silvering.

Wildwolf, I haven't decided what I want to do yet. Your suggestions are good and pretty much summarize my choices. I love my SFs. I don't want to get rid of them. I just don't know if I have the time, space, and knowledge to do what I need to do to get on tract --if they prove to be carriers. If they aren't carriers, then I'm good to go. Though I already see that one doe at least is carrying the wool gene.

Silver Fox -- Harlequin?

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