Colour question
- Thread starter Mckatie
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I'm pretty sure this is a broken black tort.
My first instinct was a broken agouti sable point, but I checked pictures of other rabbits with that colour and... nah.
If it's indeed a tort, you know that your doe carries self.
My first instinct was a broken agouti sable point, but I checked pictures of other rabbits with that colour and... nah.
If it's indeed a tort, you know that your doe carries self.
Thank you!
The kit does look like a broken tort. So if the doe is self than she is not genetically red, is she? So how does one differentiate a tort from a red by phenotype? Honey simply looked a litte smutty. I will follow this up with photos of 3 red kits(1/2 siblings) for thoughts . Thank you!
She's genetically red, yes. An orange or red (some people only use red for those rabbits with the wideband gene, but not everyone) is an <A_B_C_D_ee>. A black tort is an <aaB_C_D_ee> rabbit (The _ mean unknown genes, they can have anything there and still be orange/black tort).
As you can see, there is not much of a difference. They are the same colour except one is self-based and the other is agouti.
For the baby to be tort, your doe only needs to carry the <a> gene in order to pass it down, she doesn't need to show it. By having a tort kit you know she's <AaB_C_D_ee>, still genetically orange/red.
Thank you for the clarification! The kit colour is a welcome addition... everything goes in my lines. Hopefully I see a few more in the future.
I agree, broken tort kit. Very smutty reds and torts can be similar, but check the belly color (which may or may not be helpful on a broken!). You can also look at the ear lining, which doesn't appear to be white in this kit, so that argues for self (tort), though ear color can also be somewhat confused by the broken pattern.
You're right, if the doe is self, she is not genetically red (which is an agouti variety). But as @Naelin says, she could be red (i.e. agouti) but carry a recessive self allele, which she must do if she produced a tort. From the photo of her (?) behind that kit, I'd say smutty red (in this case you could check her belly color - it'll be creamy on a red, dark gray on a tort). If she was actually tort, you'd almost certainly see black on her nose, as well as a dark belly.
Thank you! My "reds" are creamy on the belly.... the only difference is the width of the "creamy" section. This makes sense because my broken buck is <aa> and if the doe is <Aa> there is the possibility of broken torts. This doe (out of gold tipped steel/sable point) was not as red as I'd have liked, and this is her first litter. I had previously bred her to a better red, but nothing came of that. However, I'm loving the new colour addition. I appreciate you and @Naelin taking the time to explain. As you know, I love some colour.
Since I decided not to show I work on body type /fast growing weights and embrace all the colours. I make sure the pedigrees show the most accurate colours and genotypes. Although, mostly the rabbits go to the freezer. And my friends enjoy the pelt colours for their projects. I liked the comment you made pertaining to the dog food since I just prep/freeze the rabbit meat two ways- whole or cut - easier for me. I think my dogs are city dogs..trophy hunters.
Hello! I think that all of these French lop babies are diffrent colors but I would love if someone could help me be sure. From left to right I think k I have an orange or fawn no idea really, the next one maybe a blue tort, and then the next a black tort? Thanks for any help! Also added pictures of the parents.
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You can probably rule out tort, since torts are selfs and so would not have those light inner ears. I can't see the bellies, but those are probably also light, rather than the darker gray that a tort would have.
So I think you can conclude you have three agoutis (which is not surprising since the sire is apparently a chestnut). The kits may very well all be non-extension agoutis, aka orange/red/fawn (which is often a dilute orange). What looks to be torting, especially on the kit on the far right, may be a result of a harlequin allele <e(j)>.
More photos, from different angles, and when the kits are older, would be helpful.
Do you know the colors of the parents of the sire and dam?
That’s intresting! I would have never thought chestnut! Are chestnut and agouti the same? The dams parents are a magpie and a Tri and the sire are broken opal magpie and harlequin.
Also they do have light colored bellies.
This is the rest of the litter if it helps at all. Is there any way to know if the all whites are BEW or REW?
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Chestnut aka chestnut agouti is the common name for a genetic black agouti, basically an animal with almost all dominant alleles (aka "wild type") <A_B_C_D_E_>. In French Lops the variety is known as chestnut agouti.
The light bellies/inner ears indicate they are agouti; the lack of dark tipping on the body hairs indicates they are probably non-extension agoutis (orange/red/fawn/cream).
The first three kits look like chestnut - chinchilla - chestnut. Chinchilla is an agouti with a dominant chinchilla allele <c(chd)> blocking the expression of pheomelanin (which produces the yellow pigment which gives chestnuts their golden coloration), so where a chestnut is orange, a chinchilla will be pearly white.
In French Lops:
Chestnut agouti <A_B_C_D_E_>
Chinchilla <A_B_c(chd)C)D_E_>
Orange <A_B_C_D_ee> (non-extension chestnut)
Red <A_B_C_D_ee> (high-rufus orange)
Fawn <A_B_C_D_ee> (low rufus orange)
Cream <A_B_C_ddee> (dilute orange)
All of those varieties are recognized in French Lops in the US. The common names for the varieties (esp. fawn and cream) can mean something else in other breeds.
When whites are first born, you can sometimes tell whether the eyes (not yet open) will be dark (blue) or light (pink). Once they're the age in your photos, you usually just have to wait till they open their eyes. And sometimes "whites" end up actually being himalayans - the points often do not show up till they're at least this old (look at the top of the tail: many times that's where the himalayan point color shows up first).
So the dam may either be a magpie <A_B_c(chd)_(j)eEnen> or a charlie magpie <A_B_c(chd)_e(j)e enen>. Since both of her parents were brokens, she could have one or two copies of that allele. However, since she did not produce any brokens other than the magpie kit, and maybe one or both of the whites, you could reasonably conclude she is not a charlie (if she was, all of the kits would be brokens).
The sire for sure inherited a dilute allele from his opal dam, and may or may not have inherited the harlequin from the sire, though as I said, most likely not or you'd see harlequinization. So he's probably <A_B_C_DdEe>. I gave him a recessive non-extension <Ee> since he's full color but he produced non-extension kits (same with the doe, above - she's harlequin <e(j)> but must carry a non-extension <e>, so she's <e(j)e>).
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