Help me grasp how you get a magpie from Harlequin X Sallander

curiousT said:

I am trying hard to self learn about genetics and crossing them so hoping I'm not totally off here I'll try to keep it brief as possible. Any help is greatly appreciated.

When I breed my Sallander Doe to my Black/orng Harlequin buck I usually get one Magpie (love it) I'm just wondering how this happens if everything I read says C is completely dominant? Would this mean is other allele is c? TIA

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Alaska Satin said:

There are five options on the C locus, here in order of dominance:
C - full-color
c(chd) - chinchilla
c(chl) - sable aka shaded
c(h) - himalayan
c - REW

Chinchilla <c(chd)> is recessive to full-color <C> but it is dominant to sable <c(chl)>, himalayan <c(h)> and REW <c>. So your sallander doe and your harlie buck could carry any of those, and you know for sure your buck carries one of the lower alleles behind his full-color <C> (could even be chinchilla).

Sallander is <c(chd)_>. If the sallander doe is homozygous <c(chd)c(chd)>, you won't be able to tell what your buck carries at the second C locus - you'll always get full-color or chinchilla babies. But if you ever get a sable, himalayan, or REW you 'll be able to figure it out.

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curiousT said:

Thank you very much for some reason I didn't realize he could carry chin even there possible. They seem to always have the same litter, a sable type, magpie, Harlequin and a tort.

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Alaska Satin said:

If you get sable, it means one of your rabbits carries a sable <c(chl)> in the second place on the C locus. It could be either rabbit, but it would mean the other rabbit has himi or REW in the second place (if they both carried <c(chl)> you'd most likely be seeing seals as well).

I'm a little surprised that you're not seeing any chinchilla kits. I suppose it could be that the sallander (which is a non-extension self chinchilla <aaB_c(chd)_D_ee>) is actually a sable point (which is a non-extension self sable <aa B_c(chl)_ D_ ee>), and your magpies could be sable-based rather than chinchilla-based. Sallander/sable point and chin/sable magpies can be a little difficult to tell apart by looking. Do you have pedigrees on the rabbits, especially the sallander?

It would be interesting to see pictures.

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Alaska Satin said:

Sallander is a non-extension self chinchilla <aaB_c(chd)_D_ee>. Sable point is a non-extension self sable <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee>. Both chinchilla and sable block expression of the orange tones, and sable additionally lightens the black tones to sepia (though it can still be very dark). So a self chin is a black rabbit, and a sable is a sepia rabbit with shading on the parts of the body with shorter hairs. The problem is that the self <aa> blocks expression of rings that help identify chinchilla, and the non-extension eliminates a lot of what color is left, with both varieties looking shaded (think of a tort, which looks shaded but is not sable). To be honest, all of your rabbits look like sable points to me, but I do not ever feel 100% certain about identifying a rabbit as one or the other unless I have a reliable pedigree, or have test bred the rabbit. The sable and non-extension alleles are too variable (to my eye, anyway).

If you have never seen a chinchilla kit (or a solid black self chin), it's either that all of your rabbits are self with no <A_> to allow expression of the chinchilla rings, or else your "chinchilla" rabbits are actually sable (or both). Two of the varieties you listed (sable type and a tort) are selfs, and all of the pictures you posed look like selfs since they do not have agouti trim around the eyes/ears/belly etc. So, no clues there about whether they are chin- or sable-based.

Sallanders: two images from Green Barn Farm's excellent color matrix https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml last image uncredited:
View attachment 44370 View attachment 44371 View attachment 44365

Sable points - first is one of our very dark sable point Holland, Sleeping Beauty; the next three images are from Green Barn Farm's excellent color matrix https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml):
View attachment 44369 View attachment 44368 View attachment 44373

A magpie is a harlequin with an allele that blocks the expression of pheomelanin, the yellow pigment that makes orange. There are four alleles that do that - in fact, all of the alleles recessive to full-color <C> suppress orange. So you get a rabbit with no orange, but the dark tones can be either black or sepia (himalayan or REW also suppresses pheomelanin, but we can put those aside for discussion of magpies).
c(chd) – chinchilla: suppresses most/all pheomelanin production in fur
c(chl) – sable/shaded: suppresses all pheomelanin, interferes with eumelanin so black appears sepia and eyes have a ruby glow; short hair less affected so rabbit is “shaded”
c(h) – himalayan: suppresses all pheomelanin production, and is temperature-sensitive so eumelanin generally produced only on extremities; prevents pigmentation of eyes
c – REW: all pigment production is suppressed in skin, fur and eyes. A REW rabbit still has all other color and pattern genes, but they cannot be expressed if the individual has two copies of this allele.

So a magpie can be either black (chinchilla) or sepia (sable). A lot of harlequins do not have the best color intensity, so sometimes it's hard to tell one from the other, but a sable magpie's dark patches just look off-colored, not rich black.

I agree that your VM buck looks like a sable point (non-extension sable): he's off-black and his points are much darker than his body (remember though, that a sable is also shaded - it's just that the body is also sepia, not almost white). There are several reasons he may not have produced a magpie: if the dam is also self <aa> and has only one copy of <e(j)>, you won't see the harlequin pattern. To look like a harlequin/magpie, the kit either needs to get an agouti <A_> with a dominant <e(j)> from the doe; or if it is a self, it needs two copies of <e(j)> (which it can't since the sable point is <ee>).

WHEW. Maybe @Mckatie has some comments. We've gone round and round abut her rabbits, too, and I know she's developed an eye for this.

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Alaska Satin said:

Sallander is a non-extension self chinchilla <aaB_c(chd)_D_ee>. Sable point is a non-extension self sable <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee>. Both chinchilla and sable block expression of the orange tones, and sable additionally lightens the black tones to sepia (though it can still be very dark). So a self chin is a black rabbit, and a sable is a sepia rabbit with shading on the parts of the body with shorter hairs. The problem is that the self <aa> blocks expression of rings that help identify chinchilla, and the non-extension eliminates a lot of what color is left, with both varieties looking shaded (think of a tort, which looks shaded but is not sable). To be honest, all of your rabbits look like sable points to me, but I do not ever feel 100% certain about identifying a rabbit as one or the other unless I have a reliable pedigree, or have test bred the rabbit. The sable and non-extension alleles are too variable (to my eye, anyway).

If you have never seen a chinchilla kit (or a solid black self chin), it's either that all of your rabbits are self with no <A_> to allow expression of the chinchilla rings, or else your "chinchilla" rabbits are actually sable (or both). Two of the varieties you listed (sable type and a tort) are selfs, and all of the pictures you posed look like selfs since they do not have agouti trim around the eyes/ears/belly etc. So, no clues there about whether they are chin- or sable-based.

Sallanders: two images from Green Barn Farm's excellent color matrix https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml last image uncredited:
View attachment 44370 View attachment 44371 View attachment 44365

Sable points - first is one of our very dark sable point Holland, Sleeping Beauty; the next three images are from Green Barn Farm's excellent color matrix https://www.gbfarm.org/rabbit/holland-colors-matrix.shtml):
View attachment 44369 View attachment 44368 View attachment 44373

A magpie is a harlequin with an allele that blocks the expression of pheomelanin, the yellow pigment that makes orange. There are four alleles that do that - in fact, all of the alleles recessive to full-color <C> suppress orange. So you get a rabbit with no orange, but the dark tones can be either black or sepia (himalayan or REW also suppresses pheomelanin, but we can put those aside for discussion of magpies).
c(chd) – chinchilla: suppresses most/all pheomelanin production in fur
c(chl) – sable/shaded: suppresses all pheomelanin, interferes with eumelanin so black appears sepia and eyes have a ruby glow; short hair less affected so rabbit is “shaded”
c(h) – himalayan: suppresses all pheomelanin production, and is temperature-sensitive so eumelanin generally produced only on extremities; prevents pigmentation of eyes
c – REW: all pigment production is suppressed in skin, fur and eyes. A REW rabbit still has all other color and pattern genes, but they cannot be expressed if the individual has two copies of this allele.

So a magpie can be either black (chinchilla) or sepia (sable). A lot of harlequins do not have the best color intensity, so sometimes it's hard to tell one from the other, but a sable magpie's dark patches just look off-colored, not rich black.

I agree that your VM buck looks like a sable point (non-extension sable): he's off-black and his points are much darker than his body (remember though, that a sable is also shaded - it's just that the body is also sepia, not almost white). There are several reasons he may not have produced a magpie: if the dam is also self <aa> and has only one copy of <e(j)>, you won't see the harlequin pattern. To look like a harlequin/magpie, the kit either needs to get an agouti <A_> with a dominant <e(j)> from the doe; or if it is a self, it needs two copies of <e(j)> (which it can't since the sable point is <ee>).

WHEW. Maybe @Mckatie has some comments. We've gone round and round abut her rabbits, too, and I know she's developed an eye for this.

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curiousT said:

This is my VM Sable point (I believe at least) who with the same Harlequin buck only has Harlequins, Torts and Sable or chin? Also a previous kit who i think is sable point? Never throw a Magpie

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judymac said:

I'm having a hard time with your VM sable point. She looks more harlequin to me. The side seems to be mottled, as opposed to shaded. The face and ears appear to be mottled as well, see the dark spidery mottling going up from the eye to the white forehead spot. It's not shaded, it is more like the shadow of tree branches, distinct dark interspersed through the light.
View attachment 44378

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