Self chin vs black question

Do both parents need to be solid self in order to get more self blacks? I'm looking at a doe and I know one of the parents was a himi. She is black and I cant tell if I'm seeing marbling in her eye or not. She has some scattered white hairs. Is there a possibility shes self black or is she likely to be a black self chin? I'll try to get a pic of her eyes

Here's the eye

ida1416 said:

She is black and I cant tell if I'm seeing marbling in her eye or not. She has some scattered white hairs. Is there a possibility shes self black or is she likely to be a black self chin?

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Okay, there's actually a number of ways to get a self-black looking rabbit, each with a different genetic reason. For starters, there is a gene (which some say is rare and only in a few breeds) called dominant black, coded E(D), that works with agouti. It is found on the 'E' extension gene, which determines how the dark color gets painted onto the hairshaft. E(D) pushes all of the agouti banding off the hairshaft, leaving only the dark undercolor all along the hair. In other words, it looks black, not like an agouti.

The next most dominant option on the extension gene is called steel, coded E(S). Steel pushes the dark undercolor up so that the (normally) yellowish middle band is left hanging off the tips of the hair. It's why it's called gold-tipped steel. But steel is a funny option. It only works on agouti. With a self-colored, non-agouti rabbit, you end up with that same black self rabbit again. Also, every rabbit gets a copy of each gene from each parent--a total of two copies. Rabbits with E(S) E(S) are called supersteels, and they can look all black as well, even with agouti.

Of course, rabbits with normal extension, coded with just a capital E, without agouti are also self-colored, and we have black again. All of these colors are assuming normal full-color on the Color C gene. Combine these with chinchilla or sable, and things change. Chinchilla and sable are more recessive choices on the C gene, both of which turn off the yellow-producing pigment factories, leaving just pearl white in their place. That means that gold-tipped steel has the gold tone removed, making silver-tipped steel.

Chinchilla plus non-agouti self gives you black again, the eyes can be normal brown, bluish, or marbled. Sable not only removes the yellow, part of the dark pigment factory is shut down as well, reducing output. So black becomes sepia brown on the points and back, shading down lighter as you go lower on the body. However, a rabbit with two sable genes is called a seal, which darkens everything up again. A black seal would look like a dusty black, a brownish tinge to the hair.

There does appear to be some marbling in the eye, which could point to self chin. None of this has anything to do with the white hairs, with the exception of steel, which can sometimes cause tipping in the self-colored rabbits. My question is--look closely. Are the white hairs actually scattered all-white hairs, or are they dark hairs with white tips? White tipping would suggest the steel gene. All-white hairs could be the silvering gene (an entirely different gene), or the pesky stray-white-hairs that no one seems to know what causes it.

The scattered white hairs are black at the base and the top half is white. I feel like shes got a bit of a chocolatey hue to her in some spots I'd have to get her under non-flourescent light I think to see better. No red cast to her eye though and if she was seal that would be present correct? Her undercoat is slate gray. Her siblings are some just like her and the others are chocolate himilayans. Im told they are New Zealands. Not pedigreed though so who knows. I decided to get her because I like her bone and meatiness at 10 weeks. So we will be able to see what she produces eventually.

I could grab one of her brothers that looks like her too and do a test breed if that would help determine what she is. I have a chinchilla doe that I could cross one of her brothers with as well.

ida1416 said:

The scattered white hairs are black at the base and the top half is white. I feel like shes got a bit of a chocolatey hue to her in some spots I'd have to get her under non-flourescent light I think to see better. No red cast to her eye though and if she was seal that would be present correct? Her undercoat is slate gray. Her siblings are some just like her and the others are chocolate himilayans. Im told they are New Zealands. Not pedigreed though so who knows. I decided to get her because I like her bone and meatiness at 10 weeks. So we will be able to see what she produces eventually.

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judymac said:

There does appear to be some marbling in the eye, which could point to self chin. None of this has anything to do with the white hairs, with the exception of steel, which can sometimes cause tipping in the self-colored rabbits. My question is--look closely. Are the white hairs actually scattered all-white hairs, or are they dark hairs with white tips? White tipping would suggest the steel gene. All-white hairs could be the silvering gene (an entirely different gene), or the pesky stray-white-hairs that no one seems to know what causes it.

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If she is a self aa, you would not see silver/white tipping from a E(s) allele. That requires an agouti A to be expressed. She may or may not carry it, but you would not see evidence of it.

However, those whites could be from a single copy of silver si. If that was the case and she was full-grown, I'd expect a lot more of them than that. However, if she is quite young, she may still be developing the silvering; it can take 12+ weeks to get the full silvering to show up (and it will actually keep increasing for the life of the rabbit). The reason I suspect this is, is the pattern I see on her chest:

That looks a lot like the silvering you see in an 8-week-old Champagne:


Champagnes have the very heaviest silvering of the silvered breeds; Silver Fox, for instance, are also sisi but have quite a lot less silvering. Your bunny could be have a single si from one of the less silvered breeds. You could have a self chin with silvering, since a silvered rabbit can be a self (unlike steel).

That funky eye color - not usually assumed to be connected to silver si - would make me suspect self chin; sables and seals in my experience usually have nice brown eyes. They often have a reddish cast, but not always. Seals versus blacks can be really challenging. Some say the footpad is diagnostic: gray on blacks, chocolate on seals, but I have found that there is such a range that it's not been all that helpful for me. Your rabbit doesn't really look like either, although the front pads are pretty yellowish.

If her sibs are himalayans, she could be either chin or seal. You could cross her with one of them. If she's seal, her kits with a himi buck would be sables (not seals, since they'd get a shaded gene c(chl) from her plus a himi c(h) or REW c from the himi). If she's self chin, her kits would be more self chins and/or himis and/or REWs.

Alaska Satin said:

If she is a self aa, you would not see silver/white tipping from a E(s) allele. That requires an agouti A to be expressed. She may or may not carry it, but you would not see evidence of it.

However, those whites could be from a single copy of silver si, If that was the case and she was full-grown, I'd expect a lot more of them than that. However, if she is quite young, she may still be developing the silvering; it can take 12+ weeks to get the full silvering to show up (and it will actually keep increasing for the life of the rabbit). The reason I suspect this is, is the pattern I see on her chest:
View attachment 39364
That looks a lot like the silvering you see in an 8-week-old Champagne:
View attachment 39365

Champagnes have the very heaviest silvering of the silvered breeds; Silver Fox, for instance, are also sisi but have quite a lot less silvering. Your bunny could be have a single si from one of the less silvered breeds. You could have a self chin with silvering, since a silvered rabbit can be a self (unlike steel).

That funky eye color - not usually assumed to be connected to silver si - would make me suspect self chin; sables and seals in my experience usually have nice dark brown eyes. They often have a reddish cast, but not always. Seals versus blacks can be really challenging. Some say the footpad is diagnostic: gray on blacks, chocolate on seals, but I have found that there is such a range that it's not been all that helpful for me. Your rabbit doesn't really look like either, although the front pads are pretty yellowish.

If her sibs are himalayans, she could be either chin or seal. You could cross her with one of them. If she's seal, her kits with a himi buck would be sables (not seals, since they'd get a shaded gene c(chl) from her plus a himi c(h) or REW c from the himi). If she's self chin, her kits would be more self chins and/or himis and/or REWs.

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I raise champagne d'argents! the picture of this doe though is just capturing a lovely shine she has to her coat. She doesnt have any silvering. I'm leaning towards self chin. A bit biased though as I'm hoping she is as I'm trying to get to sallanders! Options to breed her and get an answer would be to my black tort buck or breed her to one of her siblings. Everything else I have is agouti which wouldnt help. Would it be worth grabbing a brother of hers and if so should I grab a chocolate himi or one of the interesting blacks like her?

ida1416 said:

I raise champagne d'argents! the picture of this doe though is just capturing a lovely shine she has to her coat. She doesnt have any silvering. I'm leaning towards self chin. A bit biased though as I'm hoping she is as I'm trying to get to sallanders! Options to breed her and get an answer would be to my black tort buck or breed her to one of her siblings. Everything else I have is agouti which wouldnt help. Would it be worth grabbing a brother of hers and if so should I grab a chocolate himi or one of the interesting blacks like her?

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Wow, that's one tricksy photo!

Yes, breed her to a himi brother (or any himalayan); the chocolate doesn't matter. Since himi is c(h) c(h) or c(h) c, you'll get a look at what she carries at the C locus.

You can reasonably assume she's a self aa. If she's a seal c(chl) c(chl), her kits with a himi c(h)_ buck would all be sables - either c(chl) c(h), or c(chl) c (no seals, since they'd get a shaded gene c(chl) from her plus a himi c(h) or REW c from the himi). If she's a seal, she could not produce any self blacks (which need a full-color C), black self chins, himalayans or REWs.

If she's self chinchilla c(chd)_, her kits would be self chins (black), and himis and/or REWs (depending on what she and the buck carried at the second C locus).

I suppose there is also a possibility that she's a self chinchilla c(chd) also carrying the shaded c(chl) allele. In that case, with a himi buck she might give you either black self chins c(chd) c(h) or sables c(chl) c(h), but you would not get any himis or REWs.

Alaska Satin said:

Wow, that's one tricksy photo!

Yes, breed her to a himi brother (or any himalayan); the chocolate doesn't matter. Since himi is c(h) c(h) or c(h) c, you'll get a look at what she carries at the C locus.

You can reasonably assume she's a self aa. If she's a seal c(chl) c(chl), her kits with a himi c(h)_ buck would all be sables - either c(chl) c(h), or c(chl) c (no seals, since they'd get a shaded gene c(chl) from her plus a himi c(h) or REW c from the himi). If she's a seal, she could not produce any self blacks (which need a full-color C), black self chins, himalayans or REWs.

If she's self chinchilla c(chd)_, her kits would be self chins (black), and himis and/or REWs (depending on what she and the buck carried at the second C locus).

I suppose there is also a possibility that she's a self chinchilla c(chd) also carrying the shaded c(chl) allele. In that case, with a himi buck she might give you either black self chins c(chd) c(h) or sables c(chl) c(h), but you would not get any himis or REWs.

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Okay that's doable thank you I really appreciate the breakdown. I have an agouti himayalan already would that work or does it need to be self? If she was self chin her and the agouti himi would make chinchillas and demonstrate her genes that way right or wrong?
Also, am I correct to think breeding torts to chins is how you get sallanders? Do you think agouti chins or self chins would be more effective in that regard?

ida1416 said:

The scattered white hairs are black at the base and the top half is white.

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Please, can you pluck some of this hairs and put them on a white paper and take an image of it to post? Thanks.
Its unusual for hairs to have a white tip and color down the shaft.

I am very interested in some good images of the chin himi for Rabbitcolors.info as this is a rare color.
At the moment its not able to post new entries there for some problems after the provider updating software.
But you could send me images for later usage

reh said:

Please, can you pluck some of this hairs and put them on a white paper and take an image of it to post? Thanks.
Its unusual for hairs to have a white tip and color down the shaft.

I am very interested in some good images of the chin himi for Rabbitcolors.info as this is a rare color.
At the moment its not able to post new entries there for some problems after the provider updating software.
But you could send me images for later usage

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Sure! And idk if the himilayan buck I have is chin. I just know hes agouti. Looks blue. I'll get a pic later. Hes a flemish californian cross and I dont know his parentage.

ida1416 said:

Okay that's doable thank you I really appreciate the breakdown. I have an agouti himayalan already would that work or does it need to be self? If she was self chin her and the agouti himi would make chinchillas and demonstrate her genes that way right or wrong?
Also, am I correct to think breeding torts to chins is how you get sallanders? Do you think agouti chins or self chins would be more effective in that regard?

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Yes, an agouti himalayan would work. The agouti A would release the chinchilla c(chd) to make a normal chinchilla, or would cause the sable c(chl) to make a sable chinchilla. They're similar, but you can tell the difference, especially if you watch the color development of the kit.

Yes, tort x chin will eventually get you sallanders. It might take two generations because you have to get double copies of both self aa and non-extension ee plus a dominant c(chd) in the same rabbit. But you know for sure that every offspring of a tort has one copy of both a and e, so breeding them together or back to the tort parent should get you at least a few aa ee kits. (The agouti A is easier to get rid of because it's dominant.)

ida1416 said:

Sure! And idk if the himilayan buck I have is chin. I just know hes agouti. Looks blue. I'll get a pic later. Hes a flemish californian cross and I dont know his parentage.

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A himalayan cannot technically be chinchilla, c(chd), because that's dominant to himi c(h) so couldn't hide behind the himi. But an agouti himalayan would automatically be a "chinchilla" in the sense that any rabbit with a chinchilla, sable, or himalayan allele would not produce any yellow pigment. I.e. as far as I know, you could never get a chestnut agouti himalayan - they'd always be "chinchilla" looking.

Alaska Satin said:

Yes, an agouti himalayan would work. The agouti A would release the chinchilla c(chd) to make a normal chinchilla, or would cause the sable c(chl) to make a sable chinchilla. They're similar, but you can tell the difference, especially if you watch the color development of the kit.

Yes, tort x chin will eventually get you sallanders. It might take two generations because you have to get double copies of both self aa and non-extension ee plus a dominant c(chd) in the same rabbit. But you know for sure that every offspring of a tort has one copy of both a and e, so breeding them together or back to the tort parent should get you at least a few aa ee kits. (The agouti A is easier because you only need one copy.)



A himalayan cannot technically be chinchilla, c(chd), because that's dominant to himi c(h) so couldn't hide behind the himi. But an agouti himalayan would automatically be a "chinchilla" in the sense that any rabbit with a chinchilla, sable, or himalayan allele would not produce any yellow pigment. I.e. as far as I know, you could never get a chestnut agouti himalayan - they'd always be "chinchilla" looking.

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So I could get sallanders with my tort buck and either a agouti chinchilla doe or a self chinchilla doe? Would one be better than the other?

ida1416 said:

So I could get sallanders with my tort buck and either a agouti chinchilla doe or a self chinchilla doe? Would one be better than the other?

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Yes, if you know you have a self chin aa c(chd)_ , that would be better than an agouti if you want to make sallanders, because you're halfway there: you've got the aa, now you just need to double up the ee. It will still take two generations unless your self chin just happens to carry an e (it does happen, since recessives can hide for a long time).

Alaska Satin said:

Yes, if you know you have a self chin aa c(chd)_ , that would be better than an agouti if you want to make sallanders, because you're halfway there: you've got the aa, now you just need to double up the ee. It will still take two generations unless your self chin just happens to carry an e (it does happen, since recessives can hide for a long time).

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Thank you! I confess, I love the color sallander but one of the main reasons I want to make them is because I feel like their pelts could look like little reindeer hides