Help verifying color

[NicoleW]

I THINK I have the colors figured out.
If any are incorrect or missing something. I would greatly appreciate your input and feedback as it helps me to learn.

Sunflower - broken black tort
Brie - bew
Cloud - magpie (I’m not sure if she would also be considered sable?)
Meeko - magpie
Sunny - black

 

[12345]

Hello! I have a litter of French lops and I am unsure of a few of there colors, thanks for any help! I lost the previous chat that somone was helping me with this.

I have two all white babies that are starting to show black on their tails. I can not for the life of me remember what this is called.

I also have a few orange babies but I don’t k ow the difference between orang, cream, and fawn.

 

[Alaska Satin]

I THINK I have the colors figured out.
If any are incorrect or missing something. I would greatly appreciate your input and feedback as it helps me to learn.

Sunflower - broken black tort
Brie - bew
Cloud - magpie (I’m not sure if she would also be considered sable?)
Meeko - magpie
Sunny - black

That looks like as good as you can do without more information. The possibility of sable magpie is usually there, since sable <c(chl)> is recessive to chinchilla <c(chd)>. I can see why you might think Cloud is a sable magpie, given her darker nose, but I don't see similar shading on her ears, and that darkening could also be due to the effects of the harlequin allele and just having more black hairs congregated there than on other areas with markings. I think I'd have to gather more information before making a final call. Since magpies can be either chinchilla- based or sable-based, I think you're safe calling her "magpie" without any qualifier, unless you know something about her parents that would lead you to strongly suspect sable.

 

[Alaska Satin]

Hello! I have a litter of French lops and I am unsure of a few of there colors, thanks for any help!

I have two all white babies that are starting to show black on their tails. I can not for the life of me remember what this is called.

I also have a few orange babies but I don’t k ow the difference between orang, cream, and fawn.

White babies with dark eyes and dark on their tails could be sable points or ermines aka frosties. White kits with pink eyes and darkening tails would be himalayan, known as "pointed white" in French, English, Mini and Holland Lops.

Orange, cream and fawn can mean different things in different breeds. In French Lops (and English and Mini Lops), orange is a "bright orange" and fawn is "a rich golden color." Both have white undercolor and white on the belly, inner ears, jowls, and undertail. My impression is that they are both genetically orange <A_??C_D_ee>, fawn being a lower-rufus color than orange. Cream is described in the lop color standard as "creamy beige," which suggests to me a dilute orange <A_??C_ddee>.

From those three photos of yours I think you could call them either orange or fawn; I'd lean toward the latter just because the are not really "bright" orange. There are some reference photos from a breeder of Mini Lops on this page (no cream, but it does show orange, fawn and red:
http://hoppinherdofhares.com/wideband.html

 

[NicoleW]

Hello! I have a litter of French lops and I am unsure of a few of there colors, thanks for any help! I lost the previous chat that somone was helping me with this.

I have two all white babies that are starting to show black on their tails. I can not for the life of me remember what this is called.

I also have a few orange babies but I don’t k ow the difference between orang, cream, and fawn.

Pretty babies! Super jealous! I want a pair of FLops so badly. They're just impossible to get local to me and transport scares me

 

[NicoleW]

That looks like as good as you can do without more information. The possibility of sable magpie is usually there, since sable <c(chl)> is recessive to chinchilla <c(chd)>. I can see why you might think Cloud is a sable magpie, given her darker nose, but I don't see similar shading on her ears, and that darkening could also be due to the effects of the harlequin allele and just having more black hairs congregated there than on other areas with markings. I think I'd have to gather more information before making a final call. Since magpies can be either chinchilla- based or sable-based, I think you're safe calling her "magpie" without any qualifier, unless you know something about her parents that would lead you to strongly suspect sable.

I do not have a pedigree for him unfortunately. I do have pictures of the parents, but the buck was very difficult for me to try to determine his actual color.
dad of meeko



mom of meeko


Meeko's dad as a baby




Meeko's grandfather

 

[NicoleW]

Meeko and Cloud are out of the same pairing but different litters. I’m not sure how much that helps, but that’s what I’ve got. I guess it’s something?! I do know the breeder of Meeko and cloud. Meekos dad was sold as a black otter but doesn’t appear to be so, his colors are very different. I did some searching and it doesn’t seem like he would have changed colors if he were a black otter.

 

[12345]

Pretty babies! Super jealous! I want a pair of FLops so badly. They're just impossible to get local to me and transport scares me

Pretty babies! Super jealous! I want a pair of FLops so badly. They're just impossible to get local to me and transport scares me

Hope you get your French lops one day! The babies are the sweetest things!

 

[Alaska Satin]

I do not have a pedigree for him unfortunately. I do have pictures of the parents, but the buck was very difficult for me to try to determine his actual color.
dad of meeko

Wow, those are tough! So am I understanding correctly that you're saying this rabbit

is the same individual as this rabbit?


For the life of me, I can't imagine what color would develop from a solid black saddle to an orange saddle. The male kit seems to be a black silver marten (not an otter, since he seems to have only white markings, no tan). But if that was the case, there's no way he could have developed an orange coat, since the chinchilla allele that makes a marten blocks expression of most or all yellow pigment.

You're correct, black otters, or black silver martens, do not change colors; they don't even develop ticking like agoutis do. Sables do change quite a bit, but not like that, and they don't develop orange coloration (yellow pigment is suppressed by the sable allele, even more thoroughly than by chinchilla allele).

Did the kit look like that when you got him, or had he already changed to look more like the adult? This is really mystifying.

The older buck looks like some version of harlequin. The clear delineation of dark and light coloration on the head and ears says harlequin to me.
The lighter fur behind the crown is somewhat atypical, but I've learned that there's almost always something "atypical" about harlequins!

Harlequin would make sense, since if I followed correctly, he produced magpies (which are either chinchilla harlequins or sable harlequins).

Meeko and Cloud are the two magpies, yes?


The mother looks like a sable point aka non-extension sable <aaB_c(chl)_D_ee>, possibly a dilute version of that <aaB_c(chl)_ddee>. (If that blue kit in the photo with her is hers, it would argue that she's either dilute <dd> or at least carries it <Dd>, as does the sire.) Unless what appears to be variations due to light and shadow are really there, I don't see the harlequin coming from her.

My understanding is that for harlequin to be expressed in the heterozgous state (like <e(j)e>), the rabbit must have an agouti <A_>. So, the sire would be <Aa>.

None of the adults or bunnies look chocolate-based, so they're all black <B_>.

Meeko's grandfather looks like a sable point, or even a seal point (which would mean he got two copies of the sable allele <c(chl)c(chl)>). That stripe on his nose looks like it may be a vienna mark (VM). I'm guessing he's the sire of Meeko's dam, which is where the sable would have come from.

You don't say whether all of the bunnies in your original post are from the same pair or not. If they are, you could figure out more about the genetics of the parents.

But that color changing buck is a real mystery!

 

[NicoleW]

Yes. That black kit is the same as the buck you're thinking may be harlequin. I've been trying to figure out what he is with no idea besides a sable, which I think with your knowledge, you have eliminated as a likely possibility! I'm stumped lol. You think he is harlequin, which I haven't considered. He wouldnt be normal harlequin would he? As his darker areas look brown to me vs black. I thought he may have been a siamese sable with a bad molt. (I am still learning but trying!) I know she has them kept in the shade, so it shouldnt be from the sun. Maybe a bad molt? Which is proving to make things even more complicated haha.
The littermate of the magpie baby looked blue, but is actually darker. I'm not positive as even in person it's hard to tell, but it's appears more brown/black. I think it's sable? But am unsure.
No, the only related buns are Cloud and Meeko. The magpies. And the pair that produced them (the sable x mystery buck) and the grandfather pictured. I didn't know if including all known colors would be super helpful or not significant anyway. Meeko and Cloud came from a friend who owns the sable x msytery man. She had a photo of the sires father, but not the mother. As she too was confused when she thought she had brought home a black silver marten ( i said otter, but you were right, it was sm) and he started changing this wild color. I think the breeder whom sold her her breeding pair wasn't accurate in their color descriptions based off of your responses! Which would explain why it's been so difficult for us who are still very much learning to figure out everybunny after that in the line.

 

[NicoleW]

Yes. That black kit is the same as the buck you're thinking may be harlequin. I've been trying to figure out what he is with no idea besides a sable, which I think with your knowledge, you have eliminated as a likely possibility! I'm stumped lol. You think he is harlequin, which I haven't considered. He wouldnt be normal harlequin would he? As his darker areas look brown to me vs black. I thought he may have been a siamese sable with a bad molt. (I am still learning but trying!) I know she has them kept in the shade, so it shouldnt be from the sun. Maybe a bad molt? Which is proving to make things even more complicated haha.
The littermate of the magpie baby looked blue, but is actually darker. I'm not positive as even in person it's hard to tell, but it's appears more brown/black. I think it's sable? But am unsure.
No, the only related buns are Cloud and Meeko. The magpies. And the pair that produced them (the sable x mystery buck) and the grandfather pictured. I didn't know if including all known colors would be super helpful or not significant anyway. Meeko and Cloud came from a friend who owns the sable x msytery man. She had a photo of the sires father, but not the mother. As she too was confused when she thought she had brought home a black silver marten ( i said otter, but you were right, it was sm) and he started changing this wild color. I think the breeder whom sold her her breeding pair wasn't accurate in their color descriptions based off of your responses! Which would explain why it's been so difficult for us who are still very much learning to figure out everybunny after that in the line.

I did find some more pictures of the mystery buck!