stopped labor, with more kits inside...

[Zass]

He palpated, and yeah... he admitted he didn't know much about rabbits. So, a nest box would be smart.

:slap:

 

[Zinnia]

Just got word that everyone is well... kits and doe. And, that she is very happy with the vet... so... hmmm. I did gently let her know there are other choices for the future. She had taken her other doe to the vet because she was worried this would happen to her, too... Vet said she's not pregnant, she didn't take... sigh...

:shock: She was ready to risk putting another doe through invasive and potentially life threatening surgery for no particular reason??? Does she realize that a c-section is more likely to kill her does than retained fetuses would be???

No, she doesn't realize this.
I've been a pretty surprised about it all. <br /><br /> -- Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:29 pm -- <br /><br /> I have faith...

Just got another response from her. She does see this as more of a panic and listen to the vet kind of a thing. Reassuring.

 

[BC Belgians]

Just reading this topic now, because my maiden Belgian Hare doe , 8 months old, is doing exactly this RIGHT NOW. She was due to kindle today and had one baby this morning in the corner were she pees and poos. She had clean the kit off very nicely. I brought it inside to keep it warm. Since then she has made some attempts at building a nest. I put the single kit inside the nest with a heat lamp over it. I try not to look in on the doe too many times out of fear she feels disturbed, but I want to be there if she scatters more kits in her pen instead of putting them into the nest. Nothing else since this morning and it is 6 PM here now. :no:

She looks very full and first kit was very small (comparatively to other hare kits). This suggests to me that she should deliver several more kits.

The sire would be more than happy to "help out" , but I have never done that before, ... and what about the whole thing of the doe eating her kits if the buck is near by? :shock:

 

[Zass]

The sire would be more than happy to "help out" , but I have never done that before, ... and what about the whole thing of the doe eating her kits if the buck is near by? :shock:

I've never heard of a doe eating her kits if a buck is nearby. :? OK, I'll be honest, I've never had a doe take a nip of a kit at all. I don't know what I would have to do to get one of my solid tempered does to preform such an act...Probably nothing less than a very aggressive predator trying to rip open their cage the night of the birth would trigger it.

Don't they live and breed in colonies naturally? I thought the biggest problem with keeping males and females together was with does getting pregnant immediately after giving birth. Others have mentioned that a particularly aggressive buck might chase the doe around and disturb the nest, but...I would be more worried about my does being territorial and injuring or even neutering a buck.

Of course, you wouldn't put the buck in a does cage if you wanted his help stimulating labor. You would take her to his cage. I could see how it would be upsetting for a doe in labor though, so...it's something that should be done only when you feel the doe REALLY needs the help, and I wouldn't advise re-breeding any doe that needed such a treatment to have her kits.

 

[BC Belgians]

This doe's mother did a similar thing at her first time. She had one kit and then 5 dead ones about 24 hrs later. After that she's been "super mom".

So, do I understand this correctly that I could try letting my maiden doe run with the buck in the garden (neutral ground) tonight and hope she'll have the kits alive if this stimulates labor?

... or I could let her be and she might deliver the kits alive, but more possibly dead.

It was the breeder of my original breeding pair who said that does eat their kits when the buck is around. I, too, found this surprising since rabbits live in colonies, but I was a novice and she's been breeding rabbits for years.

My super dominant "super mom" doe tried neutering my buck after breeding, but bit his tail instead (lucky!) but the tail had to be amputated (unlucky, because I hadn't registered him, yet!)

 

[Celice]

rabbits are very strange when it comes to birthing. I had a doe that was SOOOO upped on hormones that she would grunt, squeal, and growl at me if I even looked at her wrong. I bred her to get her calmed down but it didn't do anything she ate her whole litter! it was horrible to look in her pen and find fur and bunny bacon bits all over. But she seemed to understand what needed to be done the next time and she calmed down EXTREMELY well and became a love bug and far more trusting of me at her second litter.

Never judge a doe by her first litter! she's new at this job...

My other doe, Blue. Had a litter just as I checked on her, she didn't take too kindly to that and STOPPED HAVING THEM!! Freaked me out!!! but she had the rest later that morning. In general rabbits do very well on their own!

Awww, a doe neutering a buck! yes, I had found this out the hard way. I put a doe with a buck and after they were done she thought enough of that and just turned and....well, poor Gizmo he was then on called the 1 balled bunny. She was a nasty piece of work.

In colony style buck do help out with the doe but not much just help build the nest, I haven't seen them do more then that...

 

[Zass]

BC Belgians, can you feel movement when you lay your hands against her sides?

 

[BC Belgians]

Zass, nothing too obvious. I thought I felt a small kick, but that was followed by some audible gut rumbling and then I could feel gas bubbles moving.

I haven't mentioned that she has been pretty much off feed. Just nibbles some hay. I read here that does going off feed pre-kindling isn't entirely abnormal. So, I decided I wasn't going to worry about that.

 

[Zass]

Zass, nothing too obvious. I thought I felt a small kick, but that was followed by some audible gut rumbling and then I could feel gas bubbles moving.

I haven't mentioned that she has been pretty much off feed. Just nibbles some hay. I read here that does going off feed pre-kindling isn't entirely abnormal. So, I decided I wasn't going to worry about that.

It all depends on how long she's been off feed and if she's drinking enough.

Keep in mind that this next part is opinion, based on the experiences I've had. Other breeders have different opinions, and there is a good chance some of those breeders have had more years and more litters under them than I do.

I personally worry about non-eating does, even near the end of their term if it goes on for more than a day or two. One of my first traumatic experiences with rabbits involved a doe who went into GI stasis because I was told that feed refusal was normal. I did realize my mistake and manage to save the doe and even some of the litter, but the whole ordeal was much worse than it could have been had I reacted sooner.
If you can, check her droppings. If she been off feed long enough to have smaller sized bunny berries, I feel it's always cause for concern.
Also, remember that the toxemia (ketosis) you were worried about? Anorexia (loss of appetite) is one of the main symptoms. I do feel that going off feed for days at a time near the end of their term could certainly contribute to fat metabolism.

If you are looking her over, check her for hydration while your at it.

You can pinch her skin to test for elasticity, but with rabbits I can usually get a good idea of hydration by checking their spines. A dehydrated rabbit will typically have a very easy to feel spine, often giving the impression of having lost a lot of weight in a very short amount of time.
If you feel that gas is making her uncomfortable, smethicone infant drops are the fastest and least invasive way to ease it that I know of.

If you can manage to not traumatize her too much while checking her out...that would be best.

 

[BC Belgians]

She's beef off feed for 4-5 days. Stopped eating her pellets and oats, but wanted sunflower seeds. Her spine is very noticeable, like you said. I thought she had lost a bunch of weight due to the babies growing ... was thinking about ketosis ... but decided to ignore it. I turner her out onto grass every day for several hours. Its been frosty and the grass is probably high in sugar because of it.

I know the pinch test from my cats :cat-hug: , but of course have no subcutaneous fluids on hand because my vet is in the hospital and the clinic turned into a gong show. So, the doe could be dehydrated. I see her drinking a lot especially today. I think she went into a mild stasis a week ago; I found the tell tell signs of it staining her towel. cecotrophes and dropping are completely normal today.

So, I don't know. I am inclined to let her be; she doesn't like being handled right now. I'll just brace myself for what I will find tomorrow.

Having babies successfully really shouldn't be that hard for bunnies. After all, unwanted bunnies overpopulate airports and university grounds everywhere. <br /><br /> -- Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:06 am -- <br /><br /> Well, its 8 AM and I really didn't want to go out to the rabbits for fear of what I would find, but ALL IS WELL She had the rest of the litter (have not counted, but looks 7-8) during the night and put them in the nest under the heat lamp, where she sat munching hay this morning very contently and deflated. One baby is dead, but I don't know if that is the baby that was born yesterday morning.

 

[Zass]

:congratulations:

She'll likely start eating now like she'd never stopped. Maybe it's something about all those big kits pressing on them that makes them not want to fill their stomach?

 

[BC Belgians]

Right you are again. She started eating pellets again and her dish of sunflower seeds was polished clean. Phew.

 

[Sagebrush]

Wonderful to hear BC Belgians. Though so sorry you lost one.

 

[Rosey1]

I've met quite a few vets with "God complexes" and/or HUGE egos, that, along with idiot owners, is why I quit the veterinary technician profession after 9 years

I agree with Grumpy that the vet was a crook and why it is so important to have a vet who you have a good rappor with, and preferably specializes in your pets species, BEFORE an emergency - I have 3 vets on speed dial to cover our livestock, warm blooded pets and cold blooded pets, we use to have a 4th just for the horses

I agree that given peace and quite and a bit of time the doe would have done fine

PS I've never had a doe die during or soon after kindling or even be in significant stress due to stuck kits so going to the vet for help would not have even entered my mind

I’ve actually had several does die in child birth because they couldn’t get their kits out, and I couldn’t help them because they decided to do it at night. If you see vaginal bleeding it’s a sign they are struggling. Now if I see vaginal bleeding I automatically bring them in the house to watch and help them. My daughter has gotten really good at massaging the stuck babies out of mom. Sometimes dead and sometimes alive. She has save several does that had them hopelessly stuck and were floppy. She got 15 dead kits out of one such doe and got her drinking again. Now I give tums before all my does are due… especially if they’ve went off food. And lavender at the due date if they haven’t nested. I had a doe go a week and a half over her due date and have to have 13 kits massaged out because she just wouldn’t push them out. Right now I’m dealing with a experienced doe who decided not to deliver her babies and we got 5 out alive (3 lived) and 13 total…. But there are still 1-2 retained in there that I just can’t get her to push out no matter what I do. She’s not eating right and im waiting for my pitocin to arrive to see if I can get her to deliver. I’ve been giving her pen g and melixocam for pain which give her some appetite.

 

[MaggieJ]

I’ve actually had several does die in child birth because they couldn’t get their kits out, and I couldn’t help them because they decided to do it at night. If you see vaginal bleeding it’s a sign they are struggling. Now if I see vaginal bleeding I automatically bring them in the house to watch and help them. My daughter has gotten really good at massaging the stuck babies out of mom. Sometimes dead and sometimes alive. She has save several does that had them hopelessly stuck and were floppy. She got 15 dead kits out of one such doe and got her drinking again. Now I give tums before all my does are due… especially if they’ve went off food. And lavender at the due date if they haven’t nested. I had a doe go a week and a half over her due date and have to have 13 kits massaged out because she just wouldn’t push them out. Right now I’m dealing with a experienced doe who decided not to deliver her babies and we got 5 out alive (3 lived) and 13 total…. But there are still 1-2 retained in there that I just can’t get her to push out no matter what I do. She’s not eating right and im waiting for my pitocin to arrive to see if I can get her to deliver. I’ve been giving her pen g and melixocam for pain which give her some appetite.

Hello Rosie. Welcome to RabbitTalk.

Rabbits usually give birth quite easily, so to have so many having problems kindling makes me wonder what is causing this. What breed are you raising? Have you investigated to try to find out if this is an inherited problem? Perhaps talked to the person who sold you your breeding stock?

It sounds like you and your daughter are adept at helping the does, but it would be better all around to track down the reason for so many kindling problems.

Good luck with this. It must be heartbreaking to lose so many kits and have so many does endangered by this problem.

~ Maggie

 

[maisaksson]

Hello. New to this forum; I raise Americans. I give my pregnant does a handful of raspberry leaves in the last two weeks of their pregnancy now, after having an older doe bleed and have a lot of trouble completing her kindling to the point of looking like she was not going to make it. I didn't know what to do other than give her raspberry leaves. She perked up and had the last five, all very nice kits.I think blackberry leaves would work too.

 

[Rabbits by Accident]

Thank you all for the sage advice. What a relief to hear it.

I did advise her to rub the belly and use herbs... That's what I would have done. But, I wouldn't have taken the nest box away in the first place. And, I really think the doe stalled because she was interrupted. There's no way I can tell my friend this. She is very sensitive and well-meaning. I think it would crush her to think she caused any complication. But, I do hope I can gently inform her that she has other options if ever this happens to her other doe.

It is a shame, as this is a doe that I hoped to get a kit back from. There are 4 live kits right now. I hope they do well, since they are her last. <br /><br /> -- Thu Nov 13, 2014 9:16 pm -- <br /><br />
Well, thank you for clearing that up! I didn't know what to make of what the vet told her. I googled it and found nothing.

She may be 'sensitive' but she is causing harm. You need to tell her that does in labor/kindling/pregnant need to have privacy, and peace. IMO you should not pussy foot around 'sensitive' people that are causing harm. She should not remove the nest box. The doe knows what she is doing. God gave her the knowledge. If her feelings get hurt she won't die, but the doe might if she keeps it up.

 

[Rabbits by Accident]

He palpated, and yeah... he admitted he didn't know much about rabbits. So, a nest box would be smart.

Doesn't know much about rabbits, but did a c-section??

 

[Rosey1]

Hello Rosie. Welcome to RabbitTalk.

Rabbits usually give birth quite easily, so to have so many having problems kindling makes me wonder what is causing this. What breed are you raising? Have you investigated to try to find out if this is an inherited problem? Perhaps talked to the person who sold you your breeding stock?

It sounds like you and your daughter are adept at helping the does, but it would be better all around to track down the reason for so many kindling problems.

Good luck with this. It must be heartbreaking to lose so many kits and have so many does endangered by this problem.

~ Maggie

They are actually all from different breeding stock. When I got some of them they were very bony and under fed and I switched them to 18% feed and they started looking better and doing better. However they also started carrying more kits since they were healthier. I was giving them calf manna and oats as a treat right up until delivery thinking it would get them healthy for nursing. Unfortunately I think it made the kits to big and healthy. So now if they are bony from nursing previous litters I give them calf manna for the first 2 weeks max and then only their pellets and hay for the last 2 weeks. I have New Zealand’s, lops, Flemish, continental, Rex, and Flemish/ giant chinchilla mixes that I’ve bred. the one I had a big issue with had 15 kits and had went off food for several days except for her salad and hay. I think she was just to full of babies. I’ve read that they drop their calcium (if they go off food) and it makes their uterus weak. My second doe that died was a mystery. She’s never had an issue ever with delivery. She was bred to a buck that she’s had no previous problems with before. my third girl. Was a first time mom and never nested but had blood on her bottom like she was laboring. She seemed calm though so I let her be. She was dead in the morning. Then my other girl that went a week and a half over was a young girl that was a first time mom. She’s nested and then never delivered. However she never went off food, she kept eating and drinking. About a week and a half later she delivered 1 and ate it, and 12 hours later she delivered 1 more, then the 3rd 12 hrs after. We decided to help her because I figured she was only going to deliver as long as she could take care of it herself.

 

[MsTemeraire]

I’ve read that they drop their calcium (if they go off food) and it makes their uterus weak.

Rabbits have a fairly unusual calcium system (compared to other mammals). They excrete excess calcium via their urine, which is why it's sometimes chalky. Calcium deficiency during birthing is pretty rare.