Breeding to the strong points within your herd.

I have folks come to me all of the time wanting a few does and "TOTALLY" unrelated buck. "Cause that's what grandpa said."

I smile and explain that when fixing certain traits within a group of rabbits, You don't want to continually out-cross and expect any progression towards your ultimate goal. I line breed using a common ancestor that was/is outstanding, explaining to my new buyers that "this" buck....mated to "that/those" does will give you the characteristics one would want in a meat rabbit herd. I get some funny looks but I remain firm in my recomendations. I try to put the best buck with the does that would "best" suit that breeding. First cousin mated to second cousin on the dam side with a strong sire on the other.

Correct me if I'm wrong....but I've found the nucleus of the the superior genetics I've been searching for and I refuse to dilute it with an outcross I know little about. By linebreeding you will "fix" those traits you're wanting. Not necessarily all of the time, but the laws of averages lend themselves better to this type of breeding regimen.

One thing I've finally found is a specific mating that produces does with outstanding milking abilities. I'm not going to lose that trait if I can keep from it. These are 1st generation does from the original pair. I'll breed these does to a large buck that produces excellent rabbits with solid frames. "Hopefully" the does in this group will continue their grandmother and grandfather's genetics. If they prove to be good stock, I'm not afraid to breed grandfather to granddaughter or grandmother to grandson and see what happens with these pairings.

grumpy.

I don't want related pairs, 4+ generations, sure. But any closer and no way. But that's me.

Sound like good planning to me. I've never asked for totally unrelated stock from a breeder. I figure if I like your stock enough to want it in my barn, I like what you're doing enough to trust you to pick animals that will work for me without putting limits on those choices. After all, you know your stock better than I do.
The first litters I had this year were from sibling matings and they were the fastest growing kits I had this year and the nicest as well. If I'd been thinking, I'd've kept a couple from those litters

I think this is good advice, grumpy. But does inbreeding ever get to be an issue? I remember when I was a kid we had a trio of severely inbred chickens, which were fine physically, but mentally a bit wonky (walking backwards in circles, trying to walk through fences, not being able to identify objects). I have heard plenty of good things about inbreeding and line breeding, but is there a point when new blood is necessary?

There are some threads about it here but the jist is there doesn't seem to be issues with it as long as you cull for your desired traits since all traits, good and bad, will be intensified. I personally cull for healthy stock by not breeding stock that has gotten sick and recovered, those go for dog food. Stock that gets sick and stays that way is humanely put down.

We call it Brackett line breeding in dogs, if you look it up and see how close and how many generations it was done, and the superior stock it produced, if gives you a better understanding or genetics and inheritance. Actually as you breed closely, the bad trais to pop up, and you can see them clearly, and it's easier to eliminate them. Really it's the way they breeds were originally created. Of course you need to start with good stock. Inferior stock will always give you inferior stock, good stock and give you good and bad, and you cull the bad. Once I close this herd, which will be some time this winter, it will be all aunt to nephew, cousins, mother to son (got it right this time) father to daughter, cousins.

With my Lion heads, the breeder gave me advise and picked out my breeding pair. When Luna has her kits, I plan to see what she gives me, if a doe, I'll breed the doe back to Neville. Or if I get a nice buck, I'll breed him back to Luna. Not bringing any other rabbits in until I see what this line gives me. I think I need to see what I have before bringing in another doe from another line.

Karen

Evvie:
Inbreeding is brother/sister mating. If you wish to find all of the faults within your herd, use this mating 3 or 4 generations in a row and all of the "chinks and kinks" will start to show up.

Line breeding is Father/daughter, Mother/son, Grandfather/granddaugther, Grandmother/grandson, and so on.

I've got a trio of full sisters that are out of a father/daughter mating and all three are excellent producers and mothers with very calm personalities. I do a lot of Aunt/Uncle to niece/nephew mating as well.

I will bring in an unrelated buck once in a while. As a matter of fact, I've got one right now. I'll use him on a couple of my better does and see what the offspring look like and how quickly they will grow out. If I like what I see, I'll keep one or two of his daughters and blend them back into my main line within the herd. He'll have to be a truly outstanding producer to maintain his place in my rabbitry.

You try to choose/select a mating that "compliments" the qualities of the other while adding their own positives to the breeding. With good quality stock, a person could breed within their herd adinfinitum and experience little to no degeneration of their stock.

If a person continually crosses unrelated stock they dilute the genetic pool with every outcross. You'll quickly lose any "positives" you've discovered. Keeping and concentrating the nucleus of superior genetics is a goal that should be taken seriously by someone with specific goals in mind.

My goals are relatively simple: Large litter sizes with 8-12 kits that have a high survival rate. Does that are excellent milkers that breed easily and quickly. Fast grow-out with uniformity of size within the litter. Larger top weights when they reach senior status. Calm personalities with very little aggression shown even when they are caring for young. (I've got my "looney-tune" Iowa stock that is beginning to show some positive signs. But they aren't out of the woods yet.)

My bucks are more "blocky" than the does. Very good natured that are not easily intimidated by aggressive does. I'm cautious in this respect because I feel a buck be affected at a young age by an overly agressive doe causing them to be "timid" when it comes to breeding.

The large majority of my rabbitry comes from 3 does and 3 bucks. Two of those bucks and two of those does come from the same rabbitry. I got them second-hand when a fella sold out. They may all come from the same litter for all I know. (I don't even know exactly how old they are!) But, they are very good rabbits that transmit the qualities I've been looking for.

I went through countless does and bucks before I discovered these 6 rabbits. Once I found them, I've made sure that I'll not lose the qualities they've shown by linebreeding them. I've still got 5 of the original 6 in my herd.

When someone comes to purchase breeding stock, they'll get only the very best youngsters from my very best breeders. My reputation goes with those rabbits when they leave. I want to make sure that folks will be satisfied when they go to breed their rabbits. The stock that I have for sale come out of does that continually give me 10 to 12 youngsters that survive and thrive.

Are all of my rabbits top-of-the-line? Nope...they're not. Those rabbits go to the processor or my reptile breeders. I refuse to sell them for any other purpose. AND....I don't sell pets.

grumpy.

I went through countless does and bucks before I discovered these 6 rabbits. Once I found them, I've made sure that I'll not lose the qualities they've shown by linebreeding them. I've still got 5 of the original 6 in my herd.

So line breeding will lose quality? Just curious.

Thanks

Karen

grumpy":3sc26r3c said:

When someone comes to purchase breeding stock, they'll get only the very best youngsters from my very best breeders. My reputation goes with those rabbits when they leave. I want to make sure that folks will be satisfied when they go to breed their rabbits. The stock that I have for sale come out of does that continually give me 10 to 12 youngsters that survive and thrive. Are all of my rabbits top-of-the-line? Nope...they're not. Those rabbits go to the processor or my reptile breeders. I refuse to sell them for any other purpose. AND....I don't sell pets.

Click to expand...

Where were you when i started up my commercial rabbitry 3 years ago. I would of love to start off with your rabbits.

So line breeding will lose quality? Just curious.

No. Exactly the opposite. Linebreeding enhances or concentrates qualities you want in your rabbits.

But, again, they've got to be "good" stock to start with. That's the key/kicker in raising rabbits. Getting the superior stock to begin with.

I went through 50-60 does and 10-15 bucks before I found what I was after. There's a whole lot of JUNK out there for sale. You just have to wade through them to find the pearls among them.

I had an entire line of show-quality Cals. I bought the entire kit-n-kaboodle, cages, stock, and all. The does were tough to breed, only had 5 or 6 kits in a litter. Sometimes all over the cage. The bucks were "slow" to breed. All in all just a pain in the backside. Got rid of them and kept the equipment. They looked GREAT....just lousy to handle and breed.

grumpy.

grumpy":15a6fsjy said:

So line breeding will lose quality? Just curious.

No. Exactly the opposite. Linebreeding enhances or concentrates qualities you want in your rabbits.

But, again, they've got to be "good" stock to start with. That's the key/kicker in raising rabbits. Getting the superior stock to begin with.

I went through 50-60 does and 10-15 bucks before I found what I was after. There's a whole lot of JUNK out there for sale. You just have to wade through them to find the pearls among them.

I had an entire line of show-quality Cals. I bought the entire kit-n-kaboodle, cages, stock, and all. The does were tough to breed, only had 5 or 6 kits in a litter. Sometimes all over the cage. The bucks were "slow" to breed. All in all just a pain in the backside. Got rid of them and kept the equipment. They looked GREAT....just lousy to handle and breed.

grumpy.

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Thanks Grumpy, appreciate the feedback. The one thing I did start out with was "good" stock. Structure, ears, DM gene. Color was secondary. We wanted healthy bunnies. Starting out with a Strong Foundation.

Funny, when I was looking for Lion heads, the first question asked was "What color do you want?" Some couldn't understand me when i said, not worried about color, worried about structure and foundation. Well, took me a while but found a breeder who worried about structure more than color.

Will see in October with hopefully my first litter.

Karen

Mary Ann's Rabbitry":10vj1i03 said:

grumpy":10vj1i03 said:

When someone comes to purchase breeding stock, they'll get only the very best youngsters from my very best breeders. My reputation goes with those rabbits when they leave. I want to make sure that folks will be satisfied when they go to breed their rabbits. The stock that I have for sale come out of does that continually give me 10 to 12 youngsters that survive and thrive. Are all of my rabbits top-of-the-line? Nope...they're not. Those rabbits go to the processor or my reptile breeders. I refuse to sell them for any other purpose. AND....I don't sell pets.

Click to expand...

Where were you when i started up my commercial rabbitry 3 years ago. I would of love to start off with your rabbits.

Click to expand...

LOL...sorry Mary Ann...I know when I began this rabbitry how "impossible" it was to find quality stock. I surely got frustrated with the inferior rabbits that were "touted" to be really good. As luck would have it, I stumbled across these by sheer accident. But, it didn't take me long to realize that these were the rabbits I'd been searching for.

I tell folks straight up that any rabbit person worth their salt WILL NOT sell you their good does. It would be foolish to assume that they would. I do, however, keep exceptional litters and allow them to age out a little. Then, I'll sort through them and find the ones that "I would like" for myself and offer them for sale.

I had 20-25 young does put back for stock. Now, I'm down to around 12-15. I may sell a few more but the rest I'll keep as I'm planning on expanding my herd through this fall and into next spring. I may have already sold too many. I run myself short all the time!!

grumpy.

grumpy":f7fy82xy said:

Very good natured that are not easily intimidated by aggressive does. I'm cautious in this respect because I feel a buck be affected at a young age by an overly agressive doe causing them to be "timid" when it comes to breeding.

Click to expand...

I have a 5 pound lop buck, that has the easiest, puppy like nature. I already have one person that has asked for a doe, when I breed him. Well, he is about 9 months old, put him with a female and he was not even interested! What do 'you' mean by affected? Do you make sure that the bucks first time, is with a doe that you know is an easy, eager breeder?
- I am just now getting my toes wet. Have a pair of nz, a pair of dutch, a pair of mini rex and a pair of lops. The mini rex and dutch seem to be the easiest (most enthusiastic) breeders. 'But' reading this, it seems as if rabbits, can be like dogs, in that the first time for a buck, 'could' make or break him.
Like the first time you feed a snake live, too. ?
- If so, is it always this way, or can you actually bred, buck (breeding) eagerness/willingness, into your line?

Piper":es1h6nvf said:

grumpy":es1h6nvf said:

Very good natured that are not easily intimidated by aggressive does. I'm cautious in this respect because I feel a buck be affected at a young age by an overly agressive doe causing them to be "timid" when it comes to breeding.

Click to expand...

I have a 5 pound lop buck, that has the easiest, puppy like nature. I already have one person that has asked for a doe, when I breed him. Well, he is about 9 months old, put him with a female and he was not even interested! What do 'you' mean by affected? Do you make sure that the bucks first time, is with a doe that you know is an easy, eager breeder?
- I am just now getting my toes wet. Have a pair of nz, a pair of dutch, a pair of mini rex and a pair of lops. The mini rex and dutch seem to be the easiest (most enthusiastic) breeders. 'But' reading this, it seems as if rabbits, can be like dogs, in that the first time for a buck, 'could' make or break him.
Like the first time you feed a snake live, too. ?
- If so, is it always this way, or can you actually bred, buck (breeding) eagerness/willingness, into your line?

Click to expand...

If a young buck gets "hammered" by an older, aggressive doe it may well affect him and his willingness to readily breed. I've seen it happen all too often and in my opinion they are definately affected.

Whenever I begin using a young buck....I'm right there at the cage door in case the doe begins acting aggressive. I WON'T let "her" ride "him". Nor will she be allowed to get too rambunctious by growling and pulling his hair. Some of my does are very, affectionate, easy breeders while others are NOT. I always let my young buck attempt his first few times with a doe that historically doesn't behave in a less-than-lady-like fashion.

If he tries to mount and she begins a fight, which some of them do, you've got trouble down the road with this youngster. Of course, I always check to make sure the doe is "ready" for service. I'm just real careful with a younger buck and I want to make sure his first few times breeding come off without a negative action by the doe. Some of them old does can be real "HAGS" with a buck, even if she's ready to breed.

A timid buck takes a long time to breed a doe, if he attempts it at all. If he gets beaten up too often he'll come to the conclusion that the "lovin'" he's wantin', ain't worth the "butt-whuppin'" he's gonna get. Pardon my bluntness.

My older herd bucks just ignore the doe's behavour and go on about their business and get the job done. They've got a "been-there/done-that" kind of attitude. "Aw-w-w shut-up and stand still!! This'll only take a second!"

grumpy.

Grumpy's advice about line is spot on. We line breed with our cairn terriers. Another positive to line breeding is you get more uniform litters. My last litter of cairn terriers all four looked the same up until 6 weeks and to this day you could still tell they are littermates when they are together.

We generally line breed for two generations and then outcross for a trait we need, then line breed again 2-3 generations to set those genetics into our lines.

I'm starting with some very good show stock in rabbits. The issue I am seeing so far is slower growth rates. I have not gotten a 5lb rabbit in 12 weeks yet. I need to pick my best to keep in the next couple breedings and possibly retire the buck and one doe that I have now.

I don't need beautiful rabbits, I need meaty brick rabbits that will reach 5lbs in 12 weeks.

Joe

Thank You, Grumpy! Was laughing all the way through your description. The visual image was great!

- Rep., when I was breeding, training and showing dogs, was the most important thing. I have a bunch of cheep, cast offs, to try to go through 'most' rabbit problems, I have read about, in my first 6 months to year, of breeding, since any (of these rabbits), can go to fc, w/o putting a breeder's nose out of joint. I do not intend to sell any of these live, except the lops babies, if he will have any!
- That is the rub. The lop (blessed by the sex change fairy) was the only one that was given to me, and the giver, has asked for a doe baby, when I breed him...

Piper, any of my stock can and will be FCd if they don't produce no matter what the breeder thinks. I've got one FW doe at the moment that if she doesn't give me a litter in the spring she's gone, I wasn't able to get her bred this year, she hasn't even changed vent colour at all so why would I keep her I can use that cage for something that will produce.

3mina":18tvg58z said:

Piper, any of my stock can and will be FCd if they don't produce no matter what the breeder thinks. I've got one FW doe at the moment that if she doesn't give me a litter in the spring she's gone, I wasn't able to get her bred this year, she hasn't even changed vent colour at all so why would I keep her I can use that cage for something that will produce.

Click to expand...

- I have no problems with fc, but this situation is a bit odd. The breeder that I am getting my rabbits from, is willing to take back (most) any of them, or trade them out for more cages. He has rolls of wire, and a machine for bending the pans. Rabbits, almost seem to be a side line, though he has one of the largest rabbit barns that I have seen. If he sells it to me as a fryer, fine - babies I breed, fine - any that I have actually bought from him, I am giving him first dibs.
When I buy my registered stock, will make sure it is from a breeder, that does believe in culling, "heavy".
Thank You, for the support, though!

I sure wish I could get some of grumpy's rabbits!

So if I understand things correctly, there really isn't any problem with inbreeding or line breeding, except that because both positive and negative traits are more likely to be matched up, eventually you may get a whole mess of bad genes (but hopefully, a whole mess of good genes instead). This is definitely some food for thought, and I bet it makes pedigrees a wee bit confusing sometimes, too xD