Animal nutrition

Hi,
I am in an animal nutrition class at college. Our project is to pick two animals throughout the semester and from start to finish we formulate the perfect balanced diet for both those animals. We have paragraphs our teacher checks each class. We start from the bottom up. I am doing my dog with arthritis and my rabbits. I have only ever fed pelleted diets so in a little lost here. I need 3-4 ingredients that make up to core of the diet. I know alfalfa/hay, boss, and oats are pretty common. But what do you guys with the natural diets feed a majority of? Is what I said the "bulk" of your diet.

Exp: for dog I have turkey, salmon, and sweet patato.

There are a couple of Stickies in the Natural Feeding Forum that should give you a lot to go on:

natural-feed-formula-list-t12371.html

trinity-oaks-grain-feed-mix-t6809.html

Did you know dogs, cats, rabbits, etc., can eat just about everything we eat. See my thread under commercial feeding, titled - Feeding Rabbits just about everything we eat

Unicorn":3ew10xoc said:

Did you know dogs, cats, rabbits, etc., can eat just about everything we eat. See my thread under commercial feeding, titled - Feeding Rabbits just about everything we eat

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Rabbits may be able to eat a lot of the things that we eat, but that isn't what the OP was asking for. This is a nutrition class, and she needs to provide ingredients for a steady natural diet that she can calculate nutrient levels for.

I read your other post. I agree with some of what you said, and it's all stuff that has been talked about on RT before. Much of what families ate during the depression was fed to their backyard meat rabbits as well (we have to remember that their diet back then did not contain all the processed food that the typical diet does today). Some of your suggestions, though, I believe would be hazardous to the health of your average rabbit. I'm also not sure where you got your information about pellets being too hard for rabbits... they will happily chew wood, and sometimes even metal.

I'm sorry to disagree with you so strongly, when you just joined. I just don't want other members new to rabbits to start feeding some of these things to their rabbits, and end up with sick rabbits.

Unicorn":2zbrhefz said:

Did you know dogs, cats, rabbits, etc., can eat just about everything we eat. See my thread under commercial feeding, titled - Feeding Rabbits just about everything we eat

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if you want to try that , then get a lot of info first, an unbalanced approach, or feeding "what ever" will harm your animals. -
Keeping Poultry And Rabbits On Scraps [Alan Thompson] is a great source of information on keeping rabbits and how to manage "non-pellet" feeding of rabbits, -
-- -but--the "get the pellets wet first" [in your other post] , is just wrong.

Rabbits can have raw potato, carrots, broccoli, pear, banana, endive lettuce/lettuce, parsley, bottle gourd, cucumber, tomato, other fruits and veggies, not to mention other foods like bread, pasta, pizza, oatmeal, etc.

Unicorn":9laeeqgi said:

Rabbits can have raw potato, carrots, broccoli, pear, banana, endive lettuce/lettuce, parsley, bottle gourd, cucumber, tomato, other fruits and veggies, not to mention other foods like bread, pasta, pizza, oatmeal, etc.

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although what you say is technically true, - it is also misleading, - people who do not understand basic rabbit nutritional needs will kill their animals following this advise . In order to have this discussion, a person would first have to talk about, basic nutritional needs, like long stem fiber, and a nutritionally complete base diet for the rabbit, - to which diet, these things you mention, could be added in moderation.

Nutrition is not just about food, it is also about other things like exercise, keeping oneself clean, entertainment, something to look forward to, company, etc. As regards nutrition in food, rabbits get vital nutrients like carbohydrates, sugars, starches, fiber, fats, proteins, calcium, vitamins, iron and other minerals, etc., from raw potato, carrots, cucumber, bottle gourd, endive, parsley, carrot tops, broccoli, dandelion leaves, other leafy greens, bananas, pears, other vegetables and fruits, pellets soaked in water, oatmeal, breads, pasta, pizza, cooked rice and lentils, beans, peas, vegetables, puddings, cakes, pastries, cookies and biscuits, other snacks, just like we do. All are natural sources of food not artificial. Good health is not only dependent upon good or the right nutrition, but also upon love, loving care, cleanliness, hygiene, exercise, entertainment, something to look forward to, company, needs being met, comforts being there, etc. Needs are not just regarding food. For good health and the right nutrition, all various kinds of needs need to be met, for only then will the rabbits be happy and healthy. A good balanced diet is one that will give rabbits plenty of all the nutrients needed, plus from various sources. I have listed nutrients, and various natural sources of food only.
What I am mainly saying is as regards food, that natural nutrition and a good balanced diet, is not something that will keep us healthy if we are not - loved, cared about, clean, hygienic, into exercise, entertainment, into something to look forward to, in company, having needs met, comforts met, etc. So, if all the rest of the nutrition is not there, natural nutrition regarding food and a good balanced diet regarding food, will not achieve much.
And this thread is about animal nutrition/natural nutrition/balanced diet. But my point is that if I say that a balanced diet regarding food is so and so, but then, it is not so, because other factors balance it too, and if they are missing, the first factor becomes meaningless, even if I list it.

Unicorn, I think you mean Well-being - as in physical and/or social well-being not nutrition... Nutrition is the process of providing or obtaining the food necessary for health and growth. Well-being is the state of being comfortable, healthy, or happy. While Nutrition plays a part in well-being it is not one and the same.

I am glad you are um...'enthusiastic' about your views but the original topic of this tread is about a scientific approach to rabbit nutrition. Not the entire well-being of the animal. Do you have a practical formula and history using your large list of foods that would create a wholesome Nutritionally complete rabbit diet? That would be the beneficial thing for the original poster. A long list of stuff just looks like a long list of stuff - nothing helpful.

I'm also trying to put together a pellet free diet for my rabbits. I was thinking of mixed grass and alfalfa hay, oats, barley or wheat, boss and flaxseed for those who need it, and forage or greens. Maybe a little barley fodder too. Salt and minerals are important.

It's hard to condense a rabbit's nutritional needs into just a few food items. Hmm...

I feel I'm too inexperienced to provide much information on the subject, but I am really looking forward to reading what you come up with!!!!

Zass":1mis0yo8 said:

This thread has gotten fftopic3:

I'd like to go back to cowgirls original question.

I'm also trying to put together a pellet free diet for my rabbits. I was thinking of mixed grass and alfalfa hay, oats, barley or wheat, boss and flaxseed for those who need it, and forage or greens. Maybe a little barley fodder too. Salt and minerals are important.

It's hard to condense a rabbit's nutritional needs into just a few food items. Hmm...

I feel I'm too inexperienced to provide much information on the subject, but I am really looking forward to reading what you come up with!!!!

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Unicorn you are speaking of enrichment not nutrition. Both important, but different. What is the use of enrichment if a rabbit is going to die of malnutrition and what is the use of nutrition if a rabbit has a terrible life and might as well be dead. Both are important but not my focus here. As Zass says this is of topic. Thank you Zass. It is hard to condense but basically we start with three or four core ingredients then calculate out all their need and add what is lacking in other food ingredients. So out of what you listed what do you feed the most of is really what I am asking THANKS!

I don't think it's hard at all to make a pellet free diet and simplify their needs. You need an energy and basic nutrient source which can be made by a couple grains, BOSS, flax, and other oil seeds. You don't need more than about 4 items from that category but I think my last mix had a dozen. :lol: Then you need a protein and fiber source which is your hay. Alfalfa also adds calcium which counters the high phosphorous grains. Then you have to look at the nutrients that aren't stable in such dried food. A livestock mineral mix and some fresh foods take care of that. Forages are probably your most time consuming research but even that can be simplified. If you pick out a couple well balanced forages, I would go for a 2:1 ca, that you have plenty of access to that's good enough. So we have maybe 8 items or less in the diet. Hay, mineral mix, and properly balanced forage that is high in fiber and not sugar or water content can be fed unlimited. The amounts don't really need researched unlike a carnivore diet. Grain and seed mix will vary by rabbit. They seem to survive the winter and breed without fresh forage the whole time. Safe tree branches can provide some of the forage nutrients over winter if you feel the need. I have also thrown in dried herbs like nettle and dandelion but it's not necessary.

When I started testing a pellet free diet one of my colonies thrived on a very basic diet for about 2 years with year round breeding. Oats, wheat, boss, flax or chia, organic legume hay, and a soft horse mineral block. They got minimal forage. Most of the year a bit of fresh alfalfa from the field, dandelions if someone hadn't sprayed them, and some plantain but it all came to only a few mouthfuls per rabbit. In the fall I did break my forage rules to give them little golfball sized apples as treats for a few weeks. Over winter they did not get forage but just peppermint horse treats to keep the diet interesting for them. Litters of 8 popped out regularly and while they grew a little slower to butchering size than a pellet fed diet they were healthy, lean, muscled, and had a great dress out rate at 3-4months.

It is hard to condense but basically we start with three or four core ingredients then calculate out all their need and add what is lacking in other food ingredients. So out of what you listed what do you feed the most of is really what I am asking THANKS!

__________ Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:29 am __________

Haha woe! Computer freak out! But its time for class ill delete my repeat posts after! And i have some questions for you akane! Stay posted please! But anesthesiology calls

cowgirl9768":222utctg said:

Haha woe! Computer freak out! But its time for class ill delete my repeat posts after!

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I took care of it for you, Cowgirl.

akane":1bnr3j7s said:

You need an energy and basic nutrient source which can be made by a couple grains, BOSS, flax, and other oil seeds. You don't need more than about 4 items from that category.

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You said a couple grains, where do you get your grains and what is a good mix? Rye, barley, wheat?... I can't imagen they would digest any form of corn well

__________ Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:00 pm __________

akane":1bnr3j7s said:

The amounts don't really need researched unlike a carnivore diet. Grain and seed mix will vary by rabbit.

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Well this is probably true but for the purpose of this class i have to ration out a ingredients to the .001% and establish witch ingredients are best to adjust in over or underweight animals, producing animals etc. <br /><br /> __________ Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:02 pm __________ <br /><br />

MamaSheepdog":1bnr3j7s said:

I took care of it for you, Cowgirl.

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Thanks!

cowgirl9768":1zccnzyk said:

akane":1zccnzyk said:

You need an energy and basic nutrient source which can be made by a couple grains, BOSS, flax, and other oil seeds. You don't need more than about 4 items from that category.

Click to expand...

You said a couple grains, where do you get your grains and what is a good mix? Rye, barley, wheat?... I can't imagen they would digest any form of corn well

__________ Wed Sep 10, 2014 4:00 pm __________

akane":1zccnzyk said:

The amounts don't really need researched unlike a carnivore diet. Grain and seed mix will vary by rabbit.

Click to expand...

Well this is probably true but for the purpose of this class i have to ration out a ingredients to the .001% and establish witch ingredients are best to adjust in over or underweight animals, producing animals etc.

Click to expand...

Probly BOSS

Do you know what the cal per 100 grams of boss is?

Wheels":1vtpqlu6 said:

Unicorn, I think you mean Well-being - as in physical and/or social well-being not nutrition... Nutrition is the process of providing or obtaining the food necessary for health and growth. Well-being is the state of being comfortable, healthy, or happy. While Nutrition plays a part in well-being it is not one and the same.

I am glad you are um...'enthusiastic' about your views but the original topic of this tread is about a scientific approach to rabbit nutrition. Not the entire well-being of the animal. Do you have a practical formula and history using your large list of foods that would create a wholesome Nutritionally complete rabbit diet? That would be the beneficial thing for the original poster. A long list of stuff just looks like a long list of stuff - nothing helpful.

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No, I mean nutrition. We get essential nutrients from food, we also receive essential nutrients from love, going to the movies, going to the mall, going on vacation, having something to look forward to, going to work, going to a party, cooking, cleaning, dusting, mopping, vaccuming, eating, drinking, clothes, new clothes, a jog, exercise, loving, caring, fresh air, etc. Don't you know how adrenaline courses through our body when we go for a run or exercise? Nutrients are of all various kinds. But in food they are carbs, sugars, starches, etc.

Unicorn, you can't just go and redefine words like nutrition. The things you mention have nothing to do with actual nutrition. If you can't deal with standard definitions of words, I would really rather you refrained from posting.

Several members have suggested that you are a troll. I'm inclined to agree, but prefer to give you the benefit of the doubt - for the moment! But please be aware that we do not put up with irresponsible postings for very long.

Unicorn":2vkd95zl said:

Wheels":2vkd95zl said:

Unicorn, I think you mean Well-being - as in physical and/or social well-being not nutrition... Nutrition is the process of providing or obtaining the food necessary for health and growth. Well-being is the state of being comfortable, healthy, or happy. While Nutrition plays a part in well-being it is not one and the same.

I am glad you are um...'enthusiastic' about your views but the original topic of this tread is about a scientific approach to rabbit nutrition. Not the entire well-being of the animal. Do you have a practical formula and history using your large list of foods that would create a wholesome Nutritionally complete rabbit diet? That would be the beneficial thing for the original poster. A long list of stuff just looks like a long list of stuff - nothing helpful.

Click to expand...

No, I mean nutrition. We get essential nutrients from food, we also receive essential nutrients from love, going to the movies, going to the mall, going on vacation, having something to look forward to, going to work, going to a party, cooking, cleaning, dusting, mopping, vaccuming, eating, drinking, clothes, new clothes, a jog, exercise, loving, caring, fresh air, etc. Don't you know how adrenaline courses through our body when we go for a run or exercise? Nutrients are of all various kinds. But in food they are carbs, sugars, starches, etc.

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Sorry hun but no...
"Nutrition - the process of providing or obtaining the food necessary for health and growth."

Took that right out of the dictonary. Note the word food. If you want to be respected you need to use propper accurate information with credible sources and see when you are wrong.