URGENT! Need help with doe

Branwyn kindled just under 3 weeks ago--8 kits. Beautiful nest, all seemed well.

Last Thursday, one of her kits seemed rather weak--seemed to just want to lay down. I intended to check on it that evening but forgot. The next morning, we found it dead. Saturday, we lost another kit. Sunday morning, DS21 found the rest of the kits lifeless.

Monday, we noticed she wasn't eating or drinking. She also hadn't pooped or peed. We noticed she seemed rather bony, and we offered her favorite treat, an apple, which she devoured readily. We gave her three more apples. She ate two of them by this morning, but nothing else. This morning she seemed weak, but I put her bottle next to her, and she drank a fair amount. This afternoon I noticed she had pooped, but very small, moist droppings. This evening she can't move around, and I can't get her to eat or drink. She did eat a few leaves of bindweed and a sprig of parsley, but that's all. No hay (grass or alfalfa), none of her usual grain feed, no kitchen oatmeal, not even more apple, bindweed, or parsley. She was convulsing a few minutes ago, but seems to have calmed down.

I'm guessing that she's missing something in her diet that caused the pregnancy and kindling to be hard on her body, but I don't know what it is. She has a salt/mineral block available all the time.

No other symptoms that I can detect. I'm at my wits' end.

Not sure of anything to suggest, but good luck with her.

Hugs,

Shannon

I don't know a whole lot about rabbit illnesses, but in any human or dog or horse...I'd suspect poison for symptoms like that. 3 weeks of just fine and then poof! they get weak and die quickly? and the adult is now convulsing? Had you recently given them anything that even MIGHT have been sprayed with herbicide or insecticide? the grains...any chance of moisture and mold in them? had you recently bought a new bag? same with the hay..anything new there?

I'm sorry, Trinity... I don't know what the problem might be. Ann could be right about possible poisoning, but if your other rabbits are fed the same things, it seems odd that they are fine.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to post about this on HT as well. Someone there may know what it is likely to be.

If you lose her, I suggest you open her up and try to find the cause of death. Possibly an infection, a retained kit, a blockage... something of that sort. If her milk supply stopped, the kits could have died of dehydration.

So sorry you're going through this. (((Hugs)))

Bindweed is poisonous (related to morning glory).

as to the doe herself
1. are you sure she was eating sufficiently throughout these past three weeks?
2. my guess is she was pouring herself into her kits, despite feeling unwell.

I've had does die on me at three weeks as well, where they took care of their kits right up until they couldn't anymore.

If the kits were that thin, were you checking on them daily?
Where you running your hand over her daily to keep track of her condition?

you need to do these things in order to keep a good check on does on kits particularly. You know how they don't like to let you know they are struggling.

I"m just telling you what I've learned.

as to what could have been wrong with her....if she dies, open her up.
Check for worms, lungs in good shape, and her liver.
it might also have been "just one of those things". Unfortunate as that may be.

sorry you are going thru this too. what has worked here, sometimes if caught early,gas drops, sq baytril, sq water, bene-bac, and canned pumpkin or whatever else you can get her to eat. took 2 does for necropsy, excessive bad bacteria causin bloat and gi stasis. for whatever reason does at 3 weeks nursing seem susceptiable

Amazingly, Branwyn is still with us. She seems a tiny bit stronger--she's lifting her head. She also seems to be able to rest, and isn't constantly shaking and panting like she was last night. I was able to get her to eat a bit of oatmeal and drink a little water, but when I put her back in her cage, she seems too weak to get on her feet, and it seems to frustrate her. I guess I'll just keep offering her oatmeal, hay, water, and whatever else I can get her to take.

__________ Wed May 12, 2010 8:31 am __________

ladysown":10b9lr3m said:

Bindweed is poisonous (related to morning glory).

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Hmmm . . . Are you sure? The cottontails and jackrabbits eat it like crazy around here. All the research I've looked at says it's safe.

1. are you sure she was eating sufficiently throughout these past three weeks?

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Near as we can tell, she was eating, drinking, pooping, and peeing normally until about Sunday.

2. my guess is she was pouring herself into her kits, despite feeling unwell.

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That's what I've been thinking, as well.

If the kits were that thin, were you checking on them daily?

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The kits weren't thin at all, although they seemed a bit smaller than her sister's (same sire, same kindling date, almost the same litter size). Dot lost three of her kits early on, so had only four to nurse, compared with Branwyn's eight. I was doing a pull and count on all the kits at least once a day, and they all seemed to be doing well until Thursday, when one kit seemed weak and died the next day.

Where you running your hand over her daily to keep track of her condition?

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I was, but maybe didn't pay close enough attention. She's always been a bit thinner than Dot, so I didn't think too much of it. She didn't seem outright bony until this weekend.

Branwyn lost her first litter a couple of months ago (kindled on the wire, didn't feed them), and she seemed so sad afterward. Now that I look back, perhaps she was experiencing the same thing as this time, just not as long.

we might be talking about a difference plant. the bindweed we have here has little white flowers shaped like the flowers of a morning glory plant. Rabbits won't willingly eat it.

so whatever happened, happened fast. So sad when that happens. Hope she recovers. Horrid to lose a litter like that, especially when you've been checking on them all along.

Branwyn's nibbling hay and oatmeal. Not a lot at a time, but it's something.

Possible update: Could a spider bite have such an effect on a rabbit? We just found a fairly large spider crawling around the wooden cage rack above her cage. It doesn't appear to be a black widow, but I don't know how a rabbit would react to a spider bite.

I would think it is a possibility, Trinity. We have no "poisonous" spiders here but I've had spider bites swell up out of all proportion to the spider itself.

Regarding bindweed, I've seen it on toxic lists, but I've also heard of people feeding it to their rabbits with no problems. If the wild cottontails and jackrabbits eat it readily, the variety you are feeding is almost certainly safe.

I got some goat calcium drench and put about 1 tsp in a 1/2 liter bottle of water. She drank a fair amount of that. She's also gradually eating more, and her eyes look brighter. I'm cautiously optimistic that she's improving, although she's still not moving much. I'm hoping, though, that as she continues to eat and drink, she'll regain her strength and be moving again before too long.

Okay. If the kits were healthy, not dehydrated, and you were checking them...and they just went so FAST...it's sounding more and more like a poison of some sort...probably to the doe which then passed it along to the kits. A spider bite would do it. Even a non poisonous one. Her body would start kicking in antibodies, which would have gone into the milk. The convulsions and the fact that she's now doing better point to it, as well. WATCH HER CAREFULLY for new symptoms or a further reaction.

All spiders are poisonous, btw. more or less. They all inject venom into the insect they bite to immobilize it. It's like mosquitoes. WE don't think they're poisonous, but give that same amount of "sting" to a newborn baby and watch what happens to the skin.

Is there anything I can give her or put in her water to help her appetite or boost her calories? She's been nibbling at grass hay, kitchen oatmeal, and apples. I also gave her a bit of strawberry leaves and parsley, and she seems to have nibbled most of that, as well.

Can rabbits have electrolytes? That REALLY helps the horses and chickens and humans. I'd assume it would work with rabbits. Even a weak solution of gatorade will help (4 parts water, 1 part gatorade)

Do you have any dandelion leaves? My rabbits almost mob me for those. And they are FULL of vitamins and protein.

Anntann":xarh6lpe said:

Can rabbits have electrolytes?

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Actually, I have some Pedialyte that I got last summer for one of our other rabbits before I realized that grain-fed rabbits need supplemental salt/minerals.

Do you have any dandelion leaves?

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I think we still have some dandelions out there. I'll check. I was a little concerned about giving her that, because of the risk of poopy butt.

More signs of improvement (I hope): I took her out of her box to clean it, figuring she's probably doing some pooping and peeing by now, even with what little she's eaten. I put her in her cage, and after a minute or so, she began grooming herself. She even got up on all fours to groom. She still seems weak and kept falling over, but she got back up at least a half-dozen times. The effort seemed to tire her out, and she's resting now.

A handful of dandelion greens will likely do no harm, unless she already has signs of poopy butt. Dandelions are mildly laxative, but it would take a lot to have an effect on a grown rabbit accustomed to green feed. Getting her to eat is very important.

pedialyte might help...watch the expiration dates though, but it''s easy to make your own. Certainly won't hurt.

I haven't had a chance to look for dandelions yet, but it appears that Branwyn is on the mend. Her appetite and mobility seem to be returning, and she's gradually gaining strength. She's on her feet more and more, grooming herself, eating, and drinking. This time last night, I thought she was a goner for sure, but now I feel hopeful that she'll recover completely.

I'm thinking calcium deficiency from nursing, but the spider is a possibility, as well. To be on the safe side, I gave my other two nursing does some of the calcium drench in their water bottles, as well.

@ladysown: I didn't even know Pedialyte had an expiration! How do you go about making your own?

oh, i'd have to look it up
1 cup boiling water, baking soda and/or salt and sugar. I think it's one tsp of each BUT... look it up on the internet. that's all I remember this late at night.

ladysown":2zdbu8b9 said:

oh, i'd have to look it up
1 cup boiling water, baking soda and/or salt and sugar. I think it's one tsp of each BUT... look it up on the internet. that's all I remember this late at night.

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WOW! I just googled Pedialyte homemade and got a BUNCH of hits! Thanks!