When to Give up (on a rabbit)

[Deer Heart]

I have 1 buck and 5 does, I am having so much difficulty breeding though.

I managed to get 2 does to kindle (Eleanor and Mountain Dew) but lost all of the kits from both (one to bad mothering, the second was my fault)
There are 3 does that try as I might I can't get them pregnant. I've rebred the first two now and managed to get two of the 3 (sierra mist and Sun drop) to lift for ONE fall off and that required a ridiculous amount of coaxing from me (I've tried cage swapping, I've tried leaving them in with buck all day, I've tried bringing the buck to them) the only thing that finally got them to lift for that one each was holding them in my lap and petting and cooing at them for nearly an hour and then taking them to the buck and holding them at his door while petting their muzzle and cooing at them. The second he got his fall off though they were too freaked out to give him the time of day again for days :/ I currently have no idea if this worked for those two.

As far as the third and final hold-out, Mellow Yellow, I really don't know if I should give up on her. She would lift for him, but got false pregnancies and had a major miscarriage of the fourth attempt at getting her bred. I gave her time to rest to be sure she recovered from her miscarriage (which was about a month ago now) and she absolutely refuses to let him come near her. Tricks don't work. I go to get her and she stiffens up because she knows where I'm taking her. Just the smell of him seems to freak her out as does the smell of me. I finally muscle her butt into his cage and she's growling at him the entire time. I've tried watching her color but it never seems to get more than slightly deeper pink than usual and even then she still freaks out at the thought and runs from both me and him.

Getting her out of her cage is like wrestling a pig, just solid defiant muscle.

 

[macksmom98]

I think it comes down to what you are willing to deal with and how much patience you have, but I am in the same boat. And wondering what my breaking point will be and when is enough....

 

[Dood]

:yeahthat:
It depends on your patience and attachment to the rabbits - some of my replacement does only have one litter and I then cull them because I don't like the results but that wasn't always the case.

3 years ago with my first 2 does i was willing to give one of them an extra 3 months to produce a litter and didn't mind that she never produced more than 6 kits and usually 3 now I won't keep a doe who; has not had a litter by 6 months old; a second litter by 8 months; produces less than 7 kits; has difficulty feeding 8 kits; has undesirable behaviours; etc... because I have options and another doe ready to replace her

 

[Deer Heart]

I don't really have options but when does it sort of become a lost cause? I've bred her 4 times now, each time I waited full term as I'm not good at palpating at all. All four times she was great and let the buck get 2-3 covers before she's had enough. Never had a litter out of any of them, after she had the stillborns right in front of me - she will no longer let him cover and is bulgy eyed running from me every time I even open her cage door. I've tried quite a few times since but she gets more and more freaked out every time her cage door is opened. She bit me the time before last even, but it wasn't charging the cage biting. It was clearly a fear bite as she only did it after I cornered her and was moving in to grab her.

I don't know if I'm just going about it all wrong with her and if so, any thoughts on what else to try? If not, I think this is it for her. I have been trying to get her pregnant specifically for over 5 months now as she WAS the first one willing to lift out of everyone... but now she wont at all. :/

 

[caroline]

I'm with Dood.They are supposed to be RABBITS. To me that means LOTS of babies easily. I too have more than I have cage space for, so unless there is a REALLY good reason I want kits from a doe [unusual color or fabulous conformation] none of mine get more than two chances to have healthy, well fed, good sized litters.
If the kits aren't getting fed, I give to another doe to foster and harvest the mom. That doesn't happen too often but it's one of the reasons I breed multiple rabbits at the same time. And I pay attention to keeping replacements out of does who were good moms AND good temperaments. No biting or lunging tolerated.

 

[Deer Heart]

I kind of had a feeling it was time with her. I just would feel incredibly remorseful if there was something else I could have tried with her but hadn't.

 

[ladysown]

ME.... I'd let her go. You've been fighting with her for a long time.... It's generally not hard to find a replacement rabbit...something younger that you can get started early.

 

[Dwc77]

I'm with Caroline. All of my does are out of big litters who had excellent mother's. People shouldn't settle for anything less than the best out of your best. Now saying all that I'm not a rabbit judge by any means but I have had a lot of rabbits in my life. I alway feel bad when people have trouble getting litters. Even Tho I raise them for meat my 4 does are kinda pets to me so when one of them only had two kits it not like I was done with her because I know she can do better. Now if she had 2 kits in every litter she probably wouldn't make it to pet status here hate to say it Sali but I would pull the plug on em. Sorry and good luck!

 

[imajpm]

That Mellow Yellow would be on my list to cull.

Now, one point I have noticed with my bucks, is that I have one buck that all my does hate. They refuse to lift with him, they eventually do, but I have to put them in 2x per day for 3 or 4 days before they finally give up. First time does are intimidated by him and I have to use a different buck. The rest of my bucks get the job done pretty easily. So trying another buck might be an idea.

 

[Preitler]

My first thought was: "5 does, what's the matter with that buck?"

 

[Deer Heart]

My first thought was: "5 does, what's the matter with that buck?"

3 lift and have been bred from him (the 3rd, Mellow yellow, simply miscarried), 2 wont without the serious effort, Mellow yellow *used* to lift but now wont after her miscarriage so part of me suspects something went wrong with her body after that that might have made breeding at all painful to her. That or she associates the miscarriage with me/him, which is a bit of a stretch.

The remaining 2 hold outs are virgin does and sisters from the same litter. I suspect it's genetic for them, they might be slow to start breeding or this would be an issue from here on out. I suspect they're just slow to breed and I'm hopeful that repeated attempts might finally calm them down... Mellow Yellow however.... I tried one last time this morning. She literally squealed like a pig, like no not like rabbits do, she sounded exactly like a pig the second the buck tried to so much as sniff her. She was a deep pink this morning. Her eyes bulged so badly that her third eyelid popped out in both eyes and covered nearly 50% of both eyes.

I'm going to mortally cull her tomorrow first thing. Thank you all for your support. I worried I was doing this too soon but she's about to be a year old and still not a single live kit...

 

[FourRingCircus]

I'm going to be doing that soon as well. I pretty much stick to "3 strikes and you're out" - I kept finding reasons to hold out on this doe (she just had her strike 3) thinking maybe it was heat related, but I think there is something wrong with her. Out of 3 litters she had one live kit (that I was able to foster over, thankfully) and multiple dead ones (a couple large, stretched ones).

 

[TF3]

So many factors to consider... Sounds like you have made a sensible decision.

I'm in a quandary, too.
I have said how difficult it was to get my Rex trio.
The GORGEOUS broken doe is:
1) nasty
2) is in a second bout of sore hocks
3) missed twice when bred
On the one hand, I hate to lose her because I paid good money for her and she is stunning.
But nasty and sore hocks are not things I want to carry forward or have to breed out later.
Which leaves freezer camp and I just can't get there yet as the second doe is small, and I need does and do not want a giant outcross at this juncture.
So I am letting Moona have her third attempt at breeding-- knowing that I have culled for less reason and that I will have to cull her kits HARD.

 

[Deer Heart]

Welp, I'm glad I did the deed now. It turned out her stomach twisted over on itself and so she had the large section of it she was still using and then a smaller nodule about the size of a newborn kit. I even thought it was a kit at first (because it folded up and over her intestines so looked like a second entity).

She was 9.1 lb alive, dressed out to exactly 5 lbs so at least I'm about to eat very well.

I took pics but kind of lazy to make a new thread.

CAUTION DO NOT CLICK LINKS IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH.

Stomach after I untwisted it.
Ovaries?

 

[imajpm]

Aww poor thing

 

[jimmywalt]

:yeahthat:
It depends on your patience and attachment to the rabbits - some of my replacement does only have one litter and I then cull them because I don't like the results but that wasn't always the case.

3 years ago with my first 2 does i was willing to give one of them an extra 3 months to produce a litter and didn't mind that she never produced more than 6 kits and usually 3 now I won't keep a doe who; has not had a litter by 6 months old; a second litter by 8 months; produces less than 7 kits; has difficulty feeding 8 kits; has undesirable behaviours; etc... because I have options and another doe ready to replace her

Dood,
We have always waited till our does are 6 months old before we breed them for the first time. At what age do you breed yours for the first time? I thought "6 months" was the norm. Thanks. <br /><br /> -- Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:14 pm -- <br /><br /> One thing that no one said was Apple Cider Vinegar........ Give it to the doe mixed with her water for about 1 week before you want to breed. I forgot how much ACV to mix though. Maybe someone can chime in.

 

[ladysown]

would have been neat to see a picture of the stomach twisted.

Certainly had a lot of fat in her too.

Good call in culling her.

 

[Deer Heart]

would have been neat to see a picture of the stomach twisted.

Certainly had a lot of fat in her too.

Good call in culling her.

I wanted to so badly but by the time I realized it was part of the stomach I had already untwisted it. When I first saw it I was like "...what is that? A dead kit? Is it an extra organ?" and then pulled on it until the stomach, resting on the other side followed my tugging and since I had her hanging up by her foot during this the intestines then slid down and caused me to lose my grip on it and during that the stomach spun back around. and properly re-oriented itself while hanging. The look on my face was mostly described as "very confused" at the time I'm sure.

She was indeed very fatty. I kept her skin and it had fat nodules all over it. Now I'm worried the other two hold outs are just fat. What can I do to whip them into breeding shape?

-- Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:40 pm --

:yeahthat:
It depends on your patience and attachment to the rabbits - some of my replacement does only have one litter and I then cull them because I don't like the results but that wasn't always the case.

3 years ago with my first 2 does i was willing to give one of them an extra 3 months to produce a litter and didn't mind that she never produced more than 6 kits and usually 3 now I won't keep a doe who; has not had a litter by 6 months old; a second litter by 8 months; produces less than 7 kits; has difficulty feeding 8 kits; has undesirable behaviours; etc... because I have options and another doe ready to replace her

Dood,
We have always waited till our does are 6 months old before we breed them for the first time. At what age do you breed yours for the first time? I thought "6 months" was the norm. Thanks.

-- Sun Nov 29, 2015 6:14 pm --

One thing that no one said was Apple Cider Vinegar........ Give it to the doe mixed with her water for about 1 week before you want to breed. I forgot how much ACV to mix though. Maybe someone can chime in.

I also do this already. I fill my water bottles from a gallon size of one of these, every time I refill it I add 2 tbsp ACV.

I also gave my buck small pieces of ginger for a while but it wasn't really his gusto that was the problem and I don't think ginger works on does.

 

[imajpm]

When I have a fat doe I cut concentrates in half and give them as much hay as they want. Takes a few weeks. I have read, from some commercial breeding article, to put them on straight hay for 3 or 4 days to burn fat but I just can't stand the begging so I still give mine a bit of the "good stuff".

 

[ladysown]

Two things
1. Reduce pellets
2. Increase exercise. This is as simple adding wood to jump over between food and water.