Viewing a Pedigree before purchase

[Skyrocket]

Currently in contact with a breeder who is refusing to allow me to see the pedigree. This person is asking that I reserve a kit until they're ready to leave then I can drive out there (an hour away, no big deal, gone further) and pick it up and see the pedigree then. You're asking me for a deposit and you're not going to let me see the lineage of the bunny I want to purchase as breed stock? That doesn't seem right to me.

Do you allow people interested in your kits to view pedigrees before reserving/purchasing a kit?

 

[Random Rabbit]

i will at least give info on the Lines the rabbit is out of. I don't normally give the entire pedigree out before purchase.

 

[caroline]

I have all my rabbits posted on globalpedigree so anyone in the world who belongs could get the pedigree of any rabbit that I have bred on there.

I know that some breeders may be anxious about people taking/using their pedigree information dishonestly. Perhaps that is the reason that this breeder is hesitating until you are met.

What is it that you want to see on the pedigree. Perhaps you could ask for that information before you go. For example: the colors of the parent and grandparents, or their weights. Or, if you are looking for a rabbit descended from a particular animal, the breeder should be willing to tell you if this rabbit is a a descendent.

 

[Skyrocket]

I have all my rabbits posted on globalpedigree so anyone in the world who belongs could get the pedigree of any rabbit that I have bred on there.

I know that some breeders may be anxious about people taking/using their pedigree information dishonestly. Perhaps that is the reason that this breeder is hesitating until you are met.

What is it that you want to see on the pedigree. Perhaps you could ask for that information before you go. For example: the colors of the parent and grandparents, or their weights. Or, if you are looking for a rabbit descended from a particular animal, the breeder should be willing to tell you if this rabbit is a a descendent.

Well they're really hesitant on answering ANY questions.
I mostly want to check if they're
a. inbred (because people lie when you ask)
b. passing off a mutt for a NZ (ended up with a NZ / Altex that was sold to me with my 2 pure NZs as a pure NZ. When I got the rabbits and read the pedigree on her I was very, very cranky)
c. if the lines are more solid red or broken red (because they didn't answer the first time I asked)
d. if line bred, how close?

I'm so tired of dishonest people around here (in my area not RT :lol that hesitant to answers questions = keep moving.
This person doesn't even have recent photos of mama bun and none of the father.
The hesitant and weird way they're emailing is making me run the other way.

Edit: The seller hesitantly, finally, sent me a pedigree. I didn't necessarily want the full pedigree just the information on it(weights,etc) When I explained that I just wanted to check out the lineage I got I guess I can send it to you then....it looks like most of the lineage is broken red and the sire has half siblings as parents. Weights ranging from 9-12 pounds. Looks decent as from what I can see.

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Well they're really hesitant on answering ANY questions.

Red flag there!

I mostly want to check if they're
a. inbred (because people lie when you ask)

Most rabbits are inbred. You get more consistency in type that way.

c. if the lines are more solid red or broken red (because they didn't answer the first time I asked)

I would be more concerned about other colors in the pedigree mucking up the clarity of color.

d. if line bred, how close?

My rabbits have been line bred/inbred heavily for three years now. I started with two does and two bucks, but one of the bucks died before I could use him, so up until about September (?) of last year (when I got another buck from the same breeder), all of my rabbits are descended from those three rabbits.

With the exception of a very few deformed kits, the rabbits have been healthy and my body type is getting really tight. I have some litters where five have been kept back as show quality, whereas some people are lucky to get one or two quality rabbits in a litter.

I'm so tired of dishonest people around here that hesitant to answers questions = keep moving.

That's probably a wise decision.

There are shows every weekend this month in Michigan. You might want to attend one and see what is available there. You could also email the show secretaries and see if they can forward your contact info to breeders in the area.

https://www.arba.net/showsSearch.php

 

[Skyrocket]

Most rabbits are inbred. You get more consistency in type that way.

yeah but I see it done to the point it actually ruins the rabbits so I try to find it minimal

I would be more concerned about other colors in the pedigree mucking up the clarity of color.

I am really but I wanted to know if the line was more solid or broken and they told me solid and I see now it's not the case. So I'm kind of concerned that they didn't really tell me the truth to begin with.

My rabbits have been line bred/inbred heavily for three years now. I started with two does and two bucks, but one of the bucks died before I could use him, so up until about September (?) of last year (when I got another buck from the same breeder), all of my rabbits are descended from those three rabbits.

With the exception of a very few deformed kits, the rabbits have been healthy and my body type is getting really tight. I have some litters where five have been kept back as show quality, whereas some people are lucky to get one or two quality rabbits in a litter.

But you pay attention to your lines, right? You know where those three rabbits came from, their lineage and you're working on really good looking rabbits. These people that I've put up with throw anyone with anything and mix everything they can to get whatever and pass it of as x,y or z. I'm so skeptical on buying rabbits from people because it's becoming more time wasting than anything.

That's probably a wise decision.

There are shows every weekend this month in Michigan. You might want to attend one and see what is available there. You could also email the show secretaries and see if they can forward your contact info to breeders in the area.

https://www.arba.net/showsSearch.php

Thank you!

 

[mystang89]

Id just like to point out that a rabbit pedigree is easily made up. If I wanted to I could make up one going back 6 generations and not a single thing be true.

 

[arachyd]

I don't show or put a lot of stock in having a specific name on a pedigree show up less than a certain number of times. Colors can be mistaken. I think I get more out of a seller willing to talk about their rabbits and seeing good pics of prior litters grown older, parents and if possible rabbits farther back in the line. The names and colors on a pedigree won't tell you anything at all about the rabbit's health, size, personality, willingness to breed, easy to feed, etc. unless you're looking for those with show wins.

 

[Zass]

Skyrocket, let me say this.
You cannot trust breeders to sell you good rabbits. Period.
I am not saying people are crooked. A great rabbit to one person is often a cull for another. They might both still be good meat producers and do well on show tables.

You need to know what you are looking for in a rabbit when you see it, and what a good color looks like. You need to be able to politely walk away if it isn't exactly what you are looking for.
The best thing to do is start attending shows, watching the judges closely. Visit as many knowledgeable rabbitrys as you can, ask see their stock and hear what they have to say. Do not get upset if they refuse to let you in, as there are many good reasons for some breeders to keep closed rabbitrys. My experience is that most are happy to have a guest, and will invite you to see their rabbits before you even ask!

Eventually you will be able to get an idea of what a breeder is all about just from the language they use. I learned a long time ago that good pedigrees do not make for good rabbits.

I think I know the kind of inbreeding your referring to. The mutant rabbits posted on DA?
The person producing them (not the one posting them for sale) had a mutt colony setup and removed bucklings and continued to leave doelings in for several generations, despite some rather nasty genetics that were obviously being passed along and concentrated. Just plain irresponsible. Even worse if they actually sold those rabbits, and others, knowing that they had bad genes, still took them and used them for breeding.

Let me explain. If a rabbit(or dog, for example) is carrying one copy of a harmful recessive gene you will not see it or know that it is a carrier.

If it is bred to another very unrelated animal it isn't likely express that harmful recessive (often called a "mutation" when it crops up) because the other animal will not have a copy of that recessive gene, but the offspring will still have 50% chance of carrying and spreading those genes into the general population.

In dogs this is considered preferable, because people generally do NOT CULL animals who express or carry those harmful recessive genes. Instead they attempt to spread them out by refusing to inbreed and carefully avoid crossing lines.

This is where rabbits are different.
If a rabbit is carrying a harmful recessive gene, it can be most quickly identified through inbreeding. This is why I generally cross doelings to their father at least once. I want to KNOW if they have something particularly nasty hidden in their genetics.
Rabbits, being nutritious and very suitable for human consumption, are often more thoroughly and carefully culled. ESPECIALLY the meat types. It is much easier to identify and remove the carriers from the gene pool this way, instead of simply trying to spread those harmful recessives out. That is why you see far fewer harmful "mutations" persisting in carefully inbred rabbit lines VS inbred dog lines.

Can someone toss random rabbits together, find mutations , refuse to remove carriers, continue to line breed to known carriers and create a nasty colony of mutant rabbits? Absolutely!

 

[MamaSheepdog]

Let me explain. If a rabbit(or dog, for example) is carrying one copy of a harmful recessive gene you will not see it or know that it is a carrier.

If it is bred to another very unrelated animal it isn't likely express that harmful recessive (often called a "mutation" when it crops up) because the other animal will not have a copy of that recessive gene, but the offspring will still have 50% chance of carrying and spreading those genes into the general population.

In dogs this is considered preferable, because people generally do NOT CULL animals who express or carry those harmful recessive genes. Instead they attempt to spread them out by refusing to inbreed and carefully avoid crossing lines.

This is where rabbits are different.
If a rabbit is carrying a harmful recessive gene, it can be most quickly identified through inbreeding. This is why I generally cross doelings to their father at least once. I want to KNOW if they have something particularly nasty hidden in their genetics.
Rabbits, being nutritious and very suitable for human consumption, are often more thoroughly and carefully culled. ESPECIALLY the meat types. It is much easier to identify and remove the carriers from the gene pool this way, instead of simply trying to spread those harmful recessives out. That is why you see far fewer harmful "mutations" persisting in carefully inbred rabbit lines VS inbred dog lines.

:greatjob:

Excellent explanation, Zass! 10 bonus points to you!

 

[Prisma]

I will give lines and short list of colors but no specifics unless asked if related to one or similar. I have sent full PEDs a and then see them plastered on theirs just so can sell pedigreed kit. If don't like practices move in, others out there.

 

[Skyrocket]

Skyrocket, let me say this.


I think I know the kind of inbreeding your referring to. The mutant rabbits posted on DA?
The person producing them (not the one posting them for sale) had a mutt colony setup and removed bucklings and continued to leave doelings in for several generations, despite some rather nasty genetics that were obviously being passed along and concentrated. Just plain irresponsible. Even worse if they actually sold those rabbits, and others, knowing that they had bad genes, still took them and used them for breeding.

I'm actually talking about the people in my area that I refuse to communicate with any further that sell at the flea markets/trade centers/reptile&pet expos and some of them do go thru craigslist (not all these people that sell at these places are bad, just the ones I don't talk to). These are people I would bring rabbits home from their table or home and it'd die on me within hours if not on the ride home. These are people who couldn't honestly tell me which rabbit was the sire and one has so many going at once she forgets who mama is once she brings babies in. I can walk away politely, and I have so many times. I know breeders that do allow a pedigree to be seen before purchase, I figured it was relatively common practice. I know pedigrees can be made up on spot but forgive me for putting a little trust in that someone might actually keep track, I'm used to dealing with these people who don't know their arses from holes in the ground.

I will give lines and short list of colors but no specifics unless asked if related to one or similar. I have sent full PEDs a and then see them plastered on theirs just so can sell pedigreed kit.

I understand and that's why I'd asked for a pedigree or a breakdown of basic history of the line. The way they responded was pretty much refusal of all questions except to the one of the doe still being available to which I got:

"As of now. I have them all sold. But I am waiting on a couple people to call me back. So if they back out by the middle of next week. I should have 2 does available again."

Were they expecting a back out? Then the next email (within 15-20 mins of the last) "I just had a person back out of buying the solid doe. So there is one available."

I just feel like this person's all shady like. I mean unless they called up the other buyers and asked if they still wanted the rabbit but the "none are available" "Oh look here this one's available" turn around was pretty abrupt. Forgive my skepticism, something just seems....off.

 

[Zass]

Yeah, don't buy rabbits from flea markets! Or livestock auctions, or yard sales. Not until you have a really good eye for condition, age, type, and health. I know some people get good rabbits that way, but it's quite a gamble.

Back to topic.
I wouldn't mail someone a copy of one of my pedigrees unless I knew them. I would mention the rabbitry names and colors and sizes on them, etc if asked. I would let someone look at the pedigree before purchasing, with the pedigree still in my own possession. I think mailing out copies to strangers who might not even buy the rabbit is a great way to enable pedigree forgers. It's much more convincing to have a pedigree with real rabbitry names and information on it!
"Backing out" is pretty common. More so for pet people, but meat and show breeders do it as well. Everyone has back outs. It's part of selling rabbits.

With some experience we can usually pinpoint the buyers who are most likely to back out at the last minute. Perhaps they were already late to pick up their rabbit? Either way, it is possible she was expecting it. It is also possible that the doe in question was going to be given to a friend or even relative and she offered her a doeling from a growing litter instead to make this one available for you.

I'm not saying your wrong. It's Ok to not want to buy her rabbits for any reason. Trust your intuition!
I just thought maybe I'd share a bit of what I'd learned being in the sellers position a few times. I'll admit, I don't sell very many rabbits. They usually all end up in the freezer because I dislike dealing with most potential buyers :lol:

 

[Skyrocket]

With some experience we can usually pinpoint the buyers who are most likely to back out at the last minute. Perhaps they were already late to pick up their rabbit? Either way, it is possible she was expecting it. It is also possible that the doe in question was going to be given to a friend or even relative and she offered her a doeling from a growing litter instead to make this one available for you.

I'm not saying your wrong. It's Ok to not want to buy her rabbits for any reason. Trust your intuition!
I just thought maybe I'd share a bit of what I'd learned being in the sellers position a few times. I'll admit, I don't sell very many rabbits. They usually all end up in the freezer because I dislike dealing with most potential buyers :lol:

I understand that, it just seemed really super abrupt like as soon as I asked and was told no she suddenly had one available. It's not really a big deal I was just startled at the sudden "oh wait..." I'm used to waiting a week or so to hear back, and since these bunnies aren't ready to leave until the 16th so I expected there to be more time between "i'll let you know" and "well so and so backed out".

I ain't tryin to fuss about it, just seemed off, and I have trouble expressing it here without sounding angry or ridiculous. really I'm fine with it. I was just startled :lol:

 

[Dood]

I think I know the kind of inbreeding your referring to. The mutant rabbits posted on DA?

What is DA and where can I see these "mutant" rabbits?

 

[Zass]

I think I know the kind of inbreeding your referring to. The mutant rabbits posted on DA?

What is DA and where can I see these "mutant" rabbits?

Deviant art, and I would link you, but I just tried to find them and she doesn't have them posted anymore.

 

[Comet007]

It may be that something hinky was going on with the availability, but... I own a nail salon, and I've had someone call and want a particular appointment time and I've been full for the entire time frame or particular slot, we book something farther out (or not at all) and then five minutes, (or twenty lol) after we get off the phone I get a call from the client in that exact time slot call and need to switch to a different time! I always feel a little weird calling the first client back, like they will think I am doing something weird, but it's just the way it happens. In my 5 years of owning a salon this has happened MANY times. I do think anytime you are dealing with people and their schedules and what they want, things like this happen. Of course, you do have to follow your own instincts!

As to the pedigrees - I guess I can see why you might want to keep someone from forging a pedigree or somehow using your pedigree info. We run into something similar in the nail industry with posting pictures online - people steal your pictures and post your work as their own. A lot of nail techs make a big deal out of watermarking their work so this can't happen. Personally I think watermarking can take a beautiful picture and make it not so beautiful to look at, and sometimes even hard to see the intricate designs in the nails, so I don't do it. Plus, if someone took a picture of one of my more intricate work, good luck to them when their client asks them to do the same work on them! I never personally feel like I can be harmed in anyway by them being cheaters, and I think they will have their own natural consequences down the road! I guess I can see both sides, but prefer just not owning the stress of worrying about it.

For myself, I bought the pedigree for my rabbits because I was a bit interested in the genotyping and figuring out what color possibilities we have with our rabbits. I didn't ask, but the breeder actually sent me a picture of our does when they were in the nest box with their litter mates, and it helped us (along with the pedigree of course) to backfill their parents genotypes and then fill in theirs. With Shaggy, she sent a picture of him with one of his litter mates - a REW, which allowed us to backfill his sires genotype (a broken Red), so we knew he carried the recessive REW gene. For this reason I don't think I would ever buy another rabbit without asking a lot of questions, because I will likely be looking for something specific.

I think that if I ever sell breeding stock I will include a 6 generation pedigree, and I have added a field in Kintracks so it shows the genotype - or at least how much I have figured out. I think I will also include pictures of litters, along with information about weights, number in litter, mortality rates, etc. Since I am already tracking and compiling all this information it will be very easy to provide it to the purchaser. If someone is buying breeding stock, it would be nice to give them peace of mind - look, this is the average number of kits from his/her Dam, weights, percentage that make it to the freezer (or sales) etc. Transparency is the best way to breed trust in my experience. Plus, who knows, if someone is just interested in breeding for themselves, it might cause them to start exploring all the possibilities and REALLY get hooked on rabbits and doing more with them, which is good for all of us in the rabbit world!