The Nestbox

[Anntann]

oh..heh I was talking about Pook's post about the chicken coop being smoke filled. I used to have nightmares about that with ours. Chickens are so destructive to things. If there's a wire to be seen, they'll jump on it and pull it down.

With rabbits in cages...heh. they can't GET to the blocks or buckets to push them over SAFE!

With the chickens, I had my heaters inside and surrounded by cement blocks and Mike designed a steel "fireplace" for a water heater base. (double walled steel drum, with a tall flue at the back...place an oillamp or container candle inside, tall 5gallon steel waterer on top). Even though I knew it was safe..I worried. sigh. I'm a worry wart.

I DO like your earth sided or "in the hillside" type housing. Did you know...if you place a deep hole in the dirt at the base of the building, and another at the top...cover with fine mesh so mice don't find the way in ...you get a lovely air flow It's a trick they use when building inground root cellars. You could take a look at the designs for root cellars for more ideas...Add light from solar gain windows....

You could also bury a PVC or even a ridged flexible sewer pipe like stuff...one end on the outside world, one in the rabbit house. making it go through a LOT of insulative dirt..under the frost line...the cold outside air would be warm by the time it got into the rabbit house.

another thing I've seen in Horse barns...DEEP holes with a fan set into the top..drawing up the 55F air year round. I'm going to try that this spring. solar powered fan (with a battery for the night power)

 

[Half Caper Farm]

Ooooh, Hobbit holes for rabbits! :bounce: I like it.

Not that I'd want to try it here - heavy clay, we'd need to hire an excavator and the rabbits aren't making me that much money. :roll:

 

[Anntann]

We have pretty heavy clay, too (loads of lovely stuff for my kiln) BUT we bought a big backhoe (been a lifesaver)..I'd offer to have Mike drive it up for the PAAAARRRRR-TTTEEEE! but the thing only goes 25mph

 

[avdpas77]

I have lost 3 kits to freezing that either got out on the wire or got to the front of the nest box and froze. They were from 3 different litters. I am starting to notice a trend, but I don't have enough instances yet, so if anyone else has lost some, mabye you can add to the info.

I would expect it to be the runts that hung on too long, or followed the mother out of the nestbox and couldn't get back in. What I have found, is that in every case, it was the largest kit that either was pulled out, or followed out. Three isn't much of a sample, though, so anyone elses experience would be appreciated.

 

[MaggieJ]

You may be right, AVD. The largest ones would be strongest and therefore best able to hang on too long. I have heard people lamenting the loss of the largest on many occasions... so that may be what is happening. We'll need to pay attention to this theory over time and see if it holds up.

 

[avdpas77]

LIFETIME RABBIT CAGES


Years ago, when I first got rabbits, I was on a tight budget, like most folks, and put my cages together according to available plans with the least expensive materials I could get. I had both some hutches, and some hanging cages in a lean-too and experienced a lot of problems and deterioration. I ended up spending more money trying to protect my animals from wind, the elements, dogs and other predators in the hutches, than I could have to have built a cheap shed, not to mention, the wood hutches proved unsanitary. There is not room here for a building vs. hutch discussion. It is my intent to describe what I have to found to be the most economical cages in the long run.

Hung (or stacked) wire cages have one main problem, (since a very few of us could ever afford stainless steel cages). That is, they corrode and/or rust. The first cages I made lasted 3 to 5 years. During that time I tried to evaluate where they failed, and come up with a plan to make a better cage. Most all rust and corrosion takes place on the bottom 3 inches of the side wire, and on the bottom of the cage itself. The most grievous cause of this corrosion is rabbit urine. The zinc that coats galvanized wire is soft as metals go, and it is prone to wear by the traffic of the animals and the sliding of crocks and nest boxes. The urine corrodes the galvanizing, and when, through wear and corrosion, the zinc wears through, then the steel wire starts rapidly rusting especially in areas where water and urine are present. Rust is a porous substance, and provides all kinds of locations for bacteria and other nasties to survive. It also weakens the welds, which after a period of time fail. Unprotected wire in a “potty corner” can rust through in a year or two if the conditions are right.


Here are some things that will increase wire life:

1) Keep a wire brush in your rabbit shed and clean out the potty corners every couple of days in any cage that is getting a poop, calcium, or hair build up.

2) At least once a year, remove your cages, completely clean them and paint any areas that the galvanizing has worn through.

3) Use “after” galvanized wire, instead of before galvanized wire. The “after galvanized wire is usually “hot dipped” instead of electroplated like the “before” wire, and the zinc is therefore much thicker. Also, in the welding process, the zinc is burned off at every wire junction in the “before” wire, leaving exposed steel. “Before” wire is coated with a waxy oil to prevent these joints from rusting in transit, but it doesn’t last long once it is in a rabbitry

4) Do not use hardware cloth for the floor. There are many reasons, one of which being, is that the wire is too thin and is hard on the rabbits feet (might be OK for dwarfs) One is much more likely to get “sore hocks”

5) Use 14 gauge instead of 16 gauge wire, especially on the floor of the cage. The increased diameter spreads out the weight of the rabbits feet, causing less wear, is much easier on the feet of the rabbit, and does not tend to sag, or break welds near as easy at the 16 gauge. My original 35 year old cage (16 gauge floors) has had so much wear that the wire is more like 18 gauge, While it is still in very sound shape, I may have to replace the bottom to prevent damage to the rabbits feet.

 

[Anntann]

about the kits being dragged out... me! me! With the angoras. Before eyes opened. Furred, but couldn't see. I had 2 days of big fat black kit standing in the middle of the pen without a clue how he got there other than he got dragged out of the box on a teat.

We had 1 of the last litter of new zealands get dragged out..one of the runts. I THINK it got dragged...Mama could have moved him out tho. nestbox full to the brim with hay, and he might have just been pushed out 'cuz he was dead/dying.

ETA: HOLY COW! Great description...and excellent photos. I really like the "strip" cage idea, btw. Nicely engineered.

 

[avdpas77]

6) In the past, after cleaning my cages, if the galvanizing had started to wear though, I would paint them, usually with whatever leftover spray paint I had around (I had one cage that had a “robin’s egg blue” bottom last year  ). This year, I have tried something new, not only on the old cages, but on the new ones I built. I painted the floors (and lower part of the sides) with epoxy paint. Epoxy paint is harder than the galvanizing. It is my hope that it will protect the galvanizing from wear, and if the galvanizing is protected, then the steel is not exposed. Epoxy paint, while very hard, is also very brittle, so minor flexing in the wire will cause it to break and flake off. My original 35-year-old “improved” cage with 16 gauge floors is already showing signs of this. So far the 14 gauge floors are not. Stay tuned, and I will let everyone know how that works out. Epoxy paint is expensive, so unless it last several years, it is not worth the cost.

7) Make your cages at least 18 inches high. There are reasons which I don’t have room here to explain. My last cages were made with sides 21” high, only because I already had the side wire. Any future cages I make will be 24 inches high.

*8) For “strip cages” like I make (cage 10’ long, 3 holes) running a piece of half inch (emt) conduit along the front and back upper corners, keeps the stress on any one piece of the cage, from stretching or breaking the cage wire. Holding brackets, hanging chains, or hanging wire can be attached anywhere.

 

[ladysown]

you have to add a scraper board to help prevent those early leavers or dragged out ones, or make the nest box opening higher so mom has to jump higher to leave.

 

[avdpas77]

9) Cages tend to rust where the wire is joined. The J clips or rings are usually not galvanized that well, and one has a “double” wire that catches debris and hold in moisture. One way to keep all the joints at least 3 inches above the bottom of the cage is to make the cage in a double “U” configuration. This also eliminates the need for any “baby saver” wire except for the partitions. This is done by getting 36” wide floor wire, and bending up 3” front and back and on the ends. The “top” can be made from 5’ 2x4” wire bent over 15 inches front and back giving one a 18” side. I have found it advantageous, if one uses this method, to ring a ¼” cold rolled steel rod in the joint when I tie it together. This prevents any “wavy” bottoms at the door openings and adds substantially to the strength of the cage.
__________ Sat Jan 09, 2010 10:56 am __________

10) In instances where one has an area at the bottom of a door opening that is having trouble, sheet metal “slip”, which is a “Z” of folded tin use to hold ducts together, can be pop riveted on for increased strength. (One can now buy a similar, but less strong “V” frame from rabbit cage suppliers)

11) Don’t cut any more holes in the side of the cages than are absolutely needed. The strength of the cage works on the “bridge girder” principle and cutting holes significantly reduces the strength of the cage and creates additional stresses on the wire left. This may cause problems with sagging and torn welds over the course of years.

Since one has to cut a door opening, the strength of the cage is already somewhat compromised. It is horizontal cuts that are the most debilitating. The second most common cut of this sort is “J” feeders.
I use crocks, they have problems of their own… abrading the galvanizing as the move around. However, when the kits start coming out of the nest on a regular basis, additional feeding areas is needed. I use a J feeder mounted inside the cage. The regular hangers can be folded back over two consecutive horizontal wires and clipped into the top of the hopper with no destructive bending. (the feeder will be “floppy” if one only one wire is used)

This does present a problem with kits getting in the hopper. One can make or buy sheet metal caps, but there is a downside to them also as the kits will sit on top the hopper and urinate in the trough. I have settled on a piece of scrap 1x 2 wire (1 x 1 would work fine also) bent in a U and placed, inverted, inside the hopper. I use to pull these out every time I filled the hopper, but found that one could pour pellets right through rather easily.

 

[Anntann]

Okay. Now I have to get Mike looking at your pictures

 

[avdpas77]

One more thing, I “hang “ my cages. I have tried chains etc., but I have found that stripped-out romex works about as good as everything for several reasons. One of the problems with hanging, is that unless one can place their cage wires obliquely, the cages have a tendency to swing a bit. O have re-done by setup and now use cheap shelf brackets in back against the wall. This makes setting the strip of cages much easier, and prevents the swinging when I tie the wires on the front part. A tie through the hole in the end of the bracket keeps the cages from sliding off. and they can be taken down very easily. I use 4 brackets for a 10' cage section.

 

[Briza]

We solved the nest box drag winter kill by just covering the floor with hay until the kits can scramble back in. It takes more cleaning but we don't loose any to that. We have a brand new Marten litter and another due tomorrow plus 3 Lionheads due at the end of the week. Normally this is our best breeding season because summer is too hot but it has been sorta worrisome with teens.
So far so good and on the warming trend now. Love that heavy gauge wire. And thanks for all that great info on keeping the deterioration at bay.

 

[avdpas77]

I'm still carrying my youngest group of kits to an from the doe so I can keep the warm. Tomorrow it should be warm enough that I can started leaving them out.

I was wondering. Do you think kits carried back and forth in a nest box twice a day are going to be more acclimated to being individually carried when they are older?

__________ Thu Jan 14, 2010 11:45 am __________

:roll: Mopsy, the first time doe whose's kits I have been bringing in because she did not pull much hair, had her kits left with her yesterday morning. We had a warm and sunny day here, and the nights are warming up too, so I decided they were old enough to leave. Well, after pulling so little fur at first, and no more since, I go back out this morning and found she has covered them with enough hair for 3 litters............... :shock:

At least I have plenty of hair to put away for a future new doe :mrgreen:

 

[Anntann]

:lol:

 

[avdpas77]

OK everyone, I am looking for some "chocolate" and "otter" (tan) genes in a larger rabbit.

My ideal would be a cholate otter. But I will take what I can get.

So........ what kind of larger rabbits currently have the chocolate and/ or otter genes? I get the idea some might be available in Rex. Anybody have any other ideas?

 

[Anntann]

otter, eh? hmm....where did I see that mentioned....AHH. Satins. both otter and chocolate there.

Flemish Giants, too, I'm thinking. the flemish crossed with a NWZ gave the best meat/body ratio, btw, in one of the research trials I found. I'll see if I can find it again.

by the way, you COULD look for a chocolate French angora Haven't heard of the otter color in angoras yet...but chocolate is certainly there.

 

[avdpas77]

by the way, you COULD look for a chocolate French angora

:shock: Thank you Ann, but I have enough fly-away fur floating around my rabbitry now. :lol:

I think Angora hair might terrify my shop vac

 

[trinityoaks]

A thought on getting fur for does who don't pull any (or enough): What about buying an undyed rabbit skin from the craft store and cutting or shaving the fur off of that?

 

[avdpas77]

A thought on getting fur for does who don't pull any (or enough): What about buying an undyed rabbit skin from the craft store and cutting or shaving the fur off of that?

Hi Trin !

I never thought of that.It might be a great option in a pinch. Luckily somone sent me some Angora fur, which got me through the rough period.
Now I have become a bit more proactive, and saved some of the excess fur from som other does.

I should have done that in the first place, but I had so many new does that kindled perfectly, that I fooled myself into thinking it would always be that way :blush: